Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds 1198
PvtVoid writes: "Jeopardy champion Arthur Chu pens a heartfelt takedown of misogyny in nerd culture: 'I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be "flattered." I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder. I've heard it from acquaintances, I've heard it from friends. I've heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
"Itâ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
How could anyone even remotely think it's a "standard frustrated geeky guy manifesto". I would wager his particular problem is shared my more than a few people who visit this website, or at least was, long ago. I find it impossible to believe that most of us chose to blame women for not making themselves available to us in our every moment of need, to blame other men who were seemingly getting that treatment for our own failings, and in general feeling such an intense narcissism and sense of entitlement to think the whole world (men and women) owe to us our ideal experience. This guy was off his rocker, I don't know if his problem was psychological or poor upbringing, but I don't think in our most desperate hour do the majority of us think that we were OWED any form of gratification. Honestly the whole thing is insulting to men and this article, to geeks.
As politically incorrect as it is to say, there is such a thing as 'boys being boys', as much as there is 'girls being girls'. I have limited experience with the latter, beyond cursory comments from my sibling. But boys will say stupid shit inspired by whatever transitory self-hating emotion they were inflicted with at the time, let loose with the grease of whatever chemical they chose to release it with. It may be hateful, self indulging, offensive or outrageous but it's usually done "with the guys" often after rejection or some failure. The emotion is vented. I don't believe for a minute that the majority actually believe their press, or would act on some idiotic revenge fantasy, or even remember their own bullshit the next morning. "Rape culture" is nothing more than vigorous internet trolling that has fed on itself and become a mythical monster that better adjusted males know is utter crap, but which the mentally unstable lock on to and embrace. It's as believable to me as video game inspired violence, in that it happens, but the problem was never the game. Does the presence of "pedo bear" imply the existence of a widespread pedophillia culture?
This is just another excuse to be outraged. We can't blame guns because he killed more people with knives. So let's focus on the ravings of an obvious madman, and let's take them seriously!
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
I did all of the above. Not murderously violent, but violent enough that I acted out in inappropriate ways.
It is safest for such men to consider *any* sexual contact outside of marriage to be rape- because it's certain that unless you have put a ring on that finger, any consent you think you have received will be revoked retroactively, and you'll be charged with rape anyway.
As for proof of a widespread pedophilia culture, I suggest you read this article analyzing the topic as it is treated in the DSM-V [huffingtonpost.com]
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
It is safest for such men to consider *any* sexual contact outside of marriage to be rape- because it's certain that unless you have put a ring on that finger, any consent you think you have received will be revoked retroactively, and you'll be charged with rape anyway.
Although, "putting a ring on that finger" doesn't automatically give you perpetual, on-demand sex privileges. It's always her (or his) body, not yours - regardless of any expensive jewelry you shelled out for. (Just saying...)
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Informative)
I did all of the above. Not murderously violent, but violent enough that I acted out in inappropriate ways.
It is safest for such men to consider *any* sexual contact outside of marriage to be rape- because it's certain that unless you have put a ring on that finger, any consent you think you have received will be revoked retroactively, and you'll be charged with rape anyway.
You do know that there hasn't been a marital exception for rape in any state for about twenty years, right?
Re:That's not a proof of a widespread anything... (Score:5, Interesting)
And those comments show why the "for the children" crowd is full of brain dead thugs. If the topic of pedophiles even comes up, they react with violence and mindless persecution. Look at how it's suggested that pedophiles--even those who have raped no one--should be murdered. They don't even know what a pedophile is.
There are few groups more terrifying than the "for the children" crowd, who will sacrifice everyone's fundamental liberties, demonize mere thoughts, and murder innocents if they think it will protect some children.
As Jim Morrison said... (Score:5, Insightful)
..."women seem wicked when you're unwanted."
Telling a bunch of people to "just stop" fails to address the underlying causes.
Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women. Rejection and loneliness results in the misogyny and creepiness lamented here. As a matter of mental self-defense, geeks decide that women are turned off by intelligence, and they (despite themselves) go around demanding that women should smarten-up and start finding intelligence sexy. Well, this is incorrect.
Women aren't turned off by intelligence. They are turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
If you want to get a real girlfriend, you are going to have to get over your sense of superiority, practice authentic humility, and be ready to give up a lot of your video-game time and study-time to instead go out on social events with a group of mutual friends, on a regular basis. Clean up your act, become what women want, and *then* you might get one. If you aren't willing to do this, then you have no business demanding that women start putting up with a bunch of stuff they don't like so they can have the privilege of being with you.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:5, Insightful)
Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women.
Introverts don't have good luck with the ladies, regardless of how geeky they are. As you correctly note, making new friends (platonic and otherwise) requires putting yourself out there, which is very difficult for an introverted personality to do.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a little difficult, but speaking as an introvert myself, it's not that hard, I just have to do it in limited doses to avoid overtaxing myself. I've had no trouble going on social outings, using dating websites, etc. I even managed to get married. But I certainly never managed to bed loads of women in my younger years like other men could.
I think it's more that just "putting yourself out there". There's various social cues that the successful men innately understand, which introverted men just plain don't. So we come off as "awkward", and don't understand why successful men can walk up to pretty women, strike up a conversation, and take her home to bed, and when the introverts try the exact same thing, they get nowhere (or worse, denigrated as "creepy").
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Insightful)
study all day every day
ready to give up a lot of your ... study-time
I don't think that word means what you think it does. In my experience, nerd culture is more about cramming random science-y trivia facts into your skull than it is the dedicated pursuit of knowledge. Might as well say I study the back of the cereal box every morning. (Spoiler alert, they're still after his lucky charms.)
Also, it seems like there's a bit stereotyping underlying your post. Guess what, men are also turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
I don't think the dividing line here is men/women. I don't know that it's even geeks/non-geeks. Maybe it's closer to extroverts/introverts. Really what it seems like to me is that a minority of people who are dedicated to their hobbies are looked down on by people who pursue those hobbies only casually (or not at all.) Model train enthusiasts are going to have the same problems as video game geeks if they don't throw a little moderation into their lives. It's just that the latter is more common.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Insightful)
Its all very true, but the reverse is also true. Its not just men that aren't hooking up. There are far too many women unable or unwilling to get to know men outside of their comfort zone and will often not connect with the right guys now or ever. They will still date the same douche bag cheating assholes they always have becasuse that's all they've ever dealt with, and maybe they finally get the chance to meet a good guy and either he doesn't meet her impossibly high standards, or else she just thinks he's gay, or weak, or whatever.
Are pooly socialized men bad at dating? YES. Are poorly socialized women bad at dating? YES. Next topic.
Re:As Jim Morrison said... (Score:4, Insightful)
Spot on. When you listen to Rodger's manifesto it's clear he has no real idea what women like in men, what makes them want to date and have sex with them. He considers himself the "perfect gentleman", but never talks about his good friendships with women or socialising with them. In all the stories in the media about him you never hear about him having close female friends. Big surprise, if some random guy who mostly keeps himself to himself and you know little about asks you out one day chances are the response won't be yes.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:4, Insightful)
"ItÃ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
What planet do you live on? This is a very common thing among nerdy guys, though slightly less so with the younger generation thankfully.
Why does every single discussion about women in tech immediately result in a bunch of denials, followed by pats on the back (upvotes) as dudes congratulate other dudes on how much of a not-problem there is?
From one white male nerd to the rest of the community: Come on, you can't be serious? Women are treated equally to men in tech? Really? Really?
The evidence is all over. You can see it on twitter, in forum posts, or just by asking any of the female geeks you may know.
To claim otherwise is to endorse a lie. If you've helped clean up your little corner of the world, excellent and good on you! But please don't pretend geek/nerd culture has no issues with women.
* As to what happens in other communities, who gives a shit? That is irrelevant. I'm concerned about our community. We should have better standards, especially those of us who were bullied as kids before the dotcom boom when being geeky started to be seen as at least not completely aberrant behavior.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Interesting)
Why does every single discussion about women in tech immediately result in a bunch of denials, followed by pats on the back (upvotes) as dudes congratulate other dudes on how much of a not-problem there is?
Because we are sick and tired of being blamed for crap we hate ourselves.
Of all the men I know and for whom I know their personal opinion on the matter, not one of them is the male chauvinist pig that feminists try to label us all as. The typical man by my experience likes women, generally enjoys it when they're sexy and beautiful, while at the same time appreciating them as human beings and treasuring intelligence, empathy and other mental traits.
None of these men wants to take away womens right to vote, or decide for themselves who to marry, or to take any job they want, or to earn a proper wage defined by their performance and qualification. None of these men sees women as inferior in any way.
However, we are all so fucking tired of the labels and blaming going on in feminist circles, and the inability to speak out against it without being branded even worse immediately, that many men I know have taken to the defense you take when other options aren't easily available: Ridicule, sarcasm - humor in general.
That's how and why I joke with some of my friends that women belong into the kitchen and the kitchen into the cellar and (the joke goes on a bit, but it doesn't translate well into english as it's a play on words). Or why we laugh about chauvinist jokes. Or why we sometimes behave in the exact way the feminists hate all male chauvinist pigs for, in an innocent way (i.e. it stays purely verbal and within the group).
Because that's how human beings react to unjust blame. Call me a chauvinist and depending on my mood I might answer things like "so true my man, oppressing women worked for 10,000 years and as soon as we stopped doing it - bam - two giant world wars." -- which to any even slightly intelligent human being is immediately recognizable as a joke, but to extremists with an agenda, things such as humor apparently don't exist.
And the same is true of the other push-backs you see. Different forms of basically saying "stop lumping me in with those assholes you stupid piece of shit", just in a more indirect way because geeks don't say things like that to your face.
Women are treated equally to men in tech? Really? Really?
It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. The more you run around with a "treat me equal you assholes" sign, the less you'll get it.
It's also because you want others to solve your problems for you. If you feel inferior, that's your problem, not mine. If you think you are verbally abused - do you even have one fucking clue what many male geeks went through in school? When you're complaining about a dirty joke to someone who has been bullied for a decade of his life, the fact that he's an introvert and insecure is the only reason he's not laughing straight in your face.
The world is a cruel place, accept it. Nobody here is perfect, and when you encounter enough human beings in your life, a considerable portion of them will be a) assholes, b) on a bad day, c) misunderstood or d) just as bitter about the world as you are.
If you want to make the world a better place - great! Maybe you should start with not blaming people who have been on the receiving end of a lot of that themselves. They could be your allies. As soon as you stop treating them like shit.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:4, Insightful)
The article you linked has a ton of issues. The biggest beef I have with its claim that it sidetracks the conversation to say "not all men are like that' simply because some are. But the context of such discussions is as a "problem" that urgently needs addressing; in that case, whether the thing is common or extremely rare would make an enormous difference in how we approach it.
One might ask whether we should have a hashtag #StopWomenDrowningBabies or something; certainly the thing happens, so clearly this is an important discussion to have, right? Except that its quite rare, and while its bad, its not a "problem" (AFAIK) that we as a society need to (or realistically could) "fix".
I dont know what the statistics are on rape, or how big the problem is, nor do I really want to discuss that (because I am not equipped to do so). But if someone wants to come out and say "men need to stop raping" I think its appropriate to point out that this isnt a universal phenomenon and that "men" arent the "enemy"-- because thats how it very often comes across.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you not bother to read the article? Also, if you don't know what the statistics are on rape, hey, you could... look them up. And if you don't want to discuss these issues why bother to post anything?
Again, did you read the article? 'Cause one of the points of the article is that women know not all men are rapists, so you being defensive about it doesn't help anyone, least of all you. Maybe if you shut yer yap long enough to listen to the issues you'd be "equipped" to have a discussion.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Interesting)
Most women probably do, though there are handful of misandrist dingbats out there. It would be useful for women who are not misandrist dingbats to disassociate themselves from that group. You don't get points for making prejudiced statements about Group X and then saying "Oh, I know not all members of Group X are like that."
And men know that rape is wrong, except for a vile handful of predators who are not going to change because of some internet discussion. It would be useful for men who are not vile predators to disassociate themselves from that group.
(I am assuming all present are familiar with and will not fall into the fallacy of the extended analogy, and will not think I am saying that misandrist statements are comparable to rape.)
Women, if you want to end the phenomenon of men saying "Not all men are misogynist," don't make statements that imply all men are misogynist.
Men, if you want to end the phenomenon of women saying "All men are misogynist," don't make statements that imply you are misogynist.
All, if you don't want people to respond defensively, don't makes statements that imply you are attacking them.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Interesting)
Whatsisname didn't want to "kill all women". He wanted to kill all of the Alpha Phi girls.
Alas, when he went out to get his revenge, they ignored him, and he didn't manage to kill even one of them. Instead he was reduced to spraying a crowd of people walking near their Sorority House, killing two women who were NOT Alpha Phi's.
Pathetic. If you're going to go to the trouble of putting your master-plan for revenge and world domination online, at least make sure you can carry it out first.
Yes, by the by, I'm making fun of whatsisname. He apparently thought he was awesome, but underappreciated. He wasn't awesome, and it looks like the ladies appreciated him exactly as much as they should have (not at all).
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
So let's talk. The boy clearly shows signs of blatant narcissism. In the first couple pages he brags about having visited 4 countries by the time he was 3, as if any child that age could gain anything meaningful from that experience. He goes on to describe a facile and warped world view, including how much joy he took in excluding his arch rival (a boy) from his 6th birthday party, classifying being denied entry to a roller coaster ride at 7 because of his height as "an injustice", and overall demonstrates a clear love of power, money, and status in settings that have no bearing on gender whatsoever. Where's the misogyny there?
He talks at length about how he refused to get a "low class retail job" because he's "an intellectual who's destined for greatness." He decides he'll be a screenwriter for about 2 weeks until he realizes they don't make much money, and then bails on it. He takes a college class, but quits halfway through because he's physically disgusted by the site of a happy couple sitting together every day. He took a janitorial job out of desperation, then quite after 5 hours because it was so beneath him. Where's the misogyny there?
There's a lot of misogynistic expression as well, of course. At one point he tells his mother that she should "sacrifice her happiness to secure his future" by marrying a rich guy she only wants to date. And yes, there's a lot of ranting about how women ignore him. But if you actually read even a little bit of it, it becomes very clear that this is a fundamentally delusional person no matter what gender he's talking about.
If you actually look at what he says, it's clear that he feels entitled to EVERYTHING. Not just women, but money, power, respect, friendship, and luxury. He's clearly not able to connect well with other people, and he basically viewed women as a prop in the perfect life of adoration that he felt he was owed. Is that misogynistic? Certainly. But taken as a whole his delusion was no more misogynistic than it was hateful of the entire human race indiscriminate of gender. Hell, he even killed twice as many men as women.
So then why is it that the outcry over this tragedy has immediately become slanted towards "violence against women!! men are terrible!!" The kid had horrific attitudes toward literally everybody around him, and was clearly an entitled little shit in every aspect of his life. In his world view all women were sluts and all men were intellectual nitwits and brutes, and NONE of them deserved to live if they got in his way. He outright said as much. Yet the social reaction to this not only emphasizes the effect it has on women, it actively EXCLUDES people from talking about the effect it has on men, and implicitly tries to lump all men in as perpetrators of the distorted mindset that Elliot Rodger had toward the world. It's divisive and bigoted, and frankly it's fucking disgusting.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Insightful)
* Snip lots of unrelated, pointless crap *
If you believe that's what's happening, I can only assume your reading comprehension skills are pretty terrible. Talking about misogyny in no way excludes you from talking about how his beliefs are harmful to men, too. In fact, I've seen several women say as much -- that this tragedy proves that misogyny hurts men, too.
And if you think that it was his narcissism to blame more than his misogyny, I'm not sure what manifesto you read. I read the one where he said this:
And this:
And this:
His narcissism is sexually driven, to my eye, and a result of his deeply held belief that women owe him sex because he's better. In other words, the problem is as much his inability to grant agency to women as his narcissism.
And if you think that talking about this in some way is bigoted against men, then frankly you're part of the problem. Just like that other guy who said there's no point in having this conversation because people already agree with us, you're completely oblivious to the problems that are right in front of you, and you can't see past your own defensiveness when someone tries to explain it to you.
To you, I say, shut up and really try to listen, and don't assume it's all about you. Are you really so narcissistic that you believe that these women who are speaking out are talking about you?
On top of that, you've completely missed the point that most of the women I've read are making -- that the alpha male culture that encourages misogyny is the cause of this, not the misogyny itself. We raise men to be narcissistic and misogynistic and to be "alpha males," and then we're surprised when they shoot people or rape women or beat the shit out of the gay kid in class. There's a reason the vast, vast majority of mass shooters are men, and it's not that women don't know how to shoot straight.
There was a really great video where Aron Ra talks about the effects of this poisonous culture on boys here [youtube.com]. I'd recommend you watch it before you spend any more time accusing people of being bigoted against men just because they decided to talk about women's problems for a change.
Re:#notallgeekyguys (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a conversation that's long overdue, and it needs to happen.
Uh, not. It's one of the most pointless and unnecessary conversations ever. No, I mean it. Hear me out.
It's not because the problem doesn't exist. It's because everyone who you actually can have an actual conversation with is already on your side. None of the people who are willing to engage in a dialog have a substantially different opinion. It's the assholes that don't do discussions, rational considerations and conversations with people outside their peer group that are your problem.
You're preaching to the choir, and in doing so, turning it against you. People dislike being held responsible for things they themselves hate, you know?
What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know about you, but there's nothing wrong with me. I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words into my mouth.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
The irony is that Chu is attacking nerds for stereotyping all women. But in the process, he's stereotyping all nerds.
Look Arthur, we're all really happy that you've got a GF who you think this stunt will impress. But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Funny)
The irony is that Chu is attacking nerds for stereotyping all women. But in the process, he's stereotyping all nerds.
Look Arthur, we're all really happy that you've got a GF who you think this stunt will impress. But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
Yeah! Bro's before ho's!
Oh, wait. Dammit.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is exactly the clueless response I expected when I saw the submission.
The point. You have missed it. By a wide margin.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
But throwing one group under the bus to stand up for another still results in just as many people getting hit by the bus.
The thing that all these finger-wagging missives fail to take into account is that masculinity, like femininity, is a social construct. There are underlying biological differences between the male and female populations, but there are also broad distributions of individual characteristics, and the gender binary model attempts to impose a crisp, discontinuous division between "masculine" and "feminine".
In doing so, it does violence to anyone who fails to fit very well with the nominal masculine or feminine ideals of the society they happen to find themselves in.
The feminist movement has done a reasonably good job, more-or-less, in pointing out how these forces operate to shape women's lives.
We have done a lousy job of appreciating that the same kinds of forces shape men's lives as well, so we get these ridiculous claims that individual men are creatures of perfect agency, utterly unaffected by the social forces that are attempting to bludgeon them into good little emotionless soldiers (or whatever your society's favoured model of masculinity is at the moment). Telling profoundly damaged, struggling individuals to "stop whining" and so on is the opposite of what they need. They need to be told: "I feel you pain, but I hate your behaviour..."
The utter lack of compassion for men, and the complete lack of awareness of how the social construction of masculinity affects them, is one of the most depressing things about the current discourse on these issues.
None of this excuses individuals who behave badly, but if we want men to get better, we have to stop failing them as completely and systematically as we are now. We have to start valuing their lives, their experiences, their reality, rather than simply hitting them harder with various real and rhetorical hammers when they refuse to fit into the socially constructed masculine role that has been prepared for them.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Interesting)
No one likes hanging around "gross creepy dudes," not even other gross creepy dudes. This guy who Chu is talking about certainly wasn't being "allowed to thrive" by anyone. His own roommates didn't even like him.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4)
By letting them amongst our ranks,
We have about as much power to define who is "amongst our ranks" as we do to define who Anonymous is. "No true nerd ..." is about as useful as "No true Scotsman..."
and by letting them know it's OK to cyberstalk someone or that hey it's ok, she was a bitch anyway or any number of inhuman and gross misogynistic streaks in our culture,
I can't recall the last time I told anyone any of that. I also can't recall the first time. That's because I can recall all the times, and the count is ZERO.
we are defined by them now.
Speak for yourself.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Interesting)
That he had hang ups with women was a product of his brain not being capable of the normal range of human emotions, not because he was an introverted nerd.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Interesting)
That's the astonishing thing about this. I read some of Elliot Rodger's book, and he was obviously an extremely disturbed man, who had a severe case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and also had other psychiatric disorders besides. At various points, he considered lashing out violently against society for the "injustice" he suffered when he did not win the powerball $400m lottery, which he felt he had been certain to win, and was entitled to.
He was crazy. He had a whole team of shrinks working on him, since he was age 8, to no avail. For much of his life he went to psychologists every single day, to no avail. He was crazy.
Yet so many people on the internet will find the moral or political lesson in it. For example: this massacre just goes to show how depraved Hollywood culture is (the editorial at the Washington Post said this). Or, it just demonstrates what's really wrong in American culture (approximately a third of the comments on scribd said this). Or, it just shows how the country has become too conservative, or too liberal. Or, it's a classic example of postmodern leftism run amok ('"ELLIOT RODGERS: PSYCHO SPEWING POSTMODERNIST CRAP" [blogspot.com]). Or, this is just another example of geek culture, even though Elliot Rodger obviously was not a geek, and spent much of his free time shopping for expensive Armani clothing.
The very silliest of these claims, was the contention that it shows what's wrong with geek culture. Elliot Rodgers was obviously not a geek. Quite the opposite, he had utter contempt for geeks. He considered them as not "alpha" males, and therefore beneath contempt, and he says so repeatedly in his "manifesto". The very first people he killed were his geeky roommates, whom he stabbed to death for precisely that reason. Claiming that Rodgers was inspired by geek culture is the most absurd of the moral lessons being drawn, and is even less serious than claiming he was inspired by postmodern leftism.
But it doesn't matter Elliot Rodgers was obviously not a geek. Even so, his massacre will still serve for Arthur Chu's moral indictment. The massacre can still be used as an indictment of geek culture, despite the obvious lack of any real connection between geek culture and Rodger's acts.
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, I'm quite sure the vast majority of men I know are nothing like the deluded fantasies this guy spews out of his mouth.
I am, however, beginning to suspect that this guy and others like him are projecting some quite nasty things they're getting from themselves on to others. If he actually believes that 'we need to get that', then (unlike most men) he certainly does need to get that. And help. Because unlike most men, he actually is a fucking creep.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Interesting)
"I don't know about you, but there's nothing wrong with me." Precisely. When the poster says "What the f*$# is wrong with us?", and at the same time uses "We" as if to group us all in together, the author is missing the point entirely. "We" are not all guilty of being misogynistic idiots. I'm open to a solid discussion of what "We" meaning all of us in the culture, community, country, or world can do about it, but don't lay this at the feet of "standard frustrated angry geeky guys".
This is like saying that video games cause violence... being a nerd doesn't make us misogynists nor mass murderers. There may be something wrong with you, there may be something wrong with lots of people, and you can bucket those people in lots of ways, but stereotyping any group (nerd, geek, woman, gay, etc. etc.) isn't helping.
Teach tolerance, patience, kindness, and practice those yourself. If you want to lobby for better mental health facilities, I'm right behind you. If you see abuse or stereotyping of any kind online and you want to call people out on it, please do. Start a hashtag, that seems to draw good attention to the topic, although there's a lot of talk about that being too much talking and too little doing. I personally think every bit helps. If you think there's a law that needs to be changed or something doable, speak up and I'm glad to listen and add ideas to craft it.
But don't rant about a problem, and group me in it because I have something (being a geek) loosely in common with someone who went completely batshit as if that makes us (geeks) more culpable than any other group while offering nothing constructive. Even if you have a correlation between misogyny and a cultural group like geeks, you better be damn sure that it's causal rather than just coincidental before accusing the culture, and given high incidents of rape culture in many male-dominated areas, it's very likely that it is NOT causal; at least not to an obvious and naive degree. And, by the way, not all males are misogynists either. It's difficult to not lump everyone in and accuse large groups, but it's important to put blame where it belongs. For the record, Chu's full article is much better than this /. summary at being balanced (surprise), but still many of the same issues exist. Big Bang Theory shouldn't get more scrutiny than Game of Thrones, for example, but it does, clearly, because it supports the author's point. I'm not giving it a pass either, just saying we need to level criticism evenly and appropriately.
"We" are not all the problem. You may be part of it, I don't know. Everyone has to be part of the solution. Some of us are trying to be without vilifying and pushing away those that are less aware.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
As the guy who tells other guys to stop being so damn idiotic, I'm sick and tired of all these articles stereotyping men as misogynistic animals.
Look, I'm actively fighting this problem (and it is a problem, nobody is saying otherwise), with you. So why are you so quick to group me with the monkeys in our society?
Seriously. I'm sick of these articles saying I'm a bad person, and I hate women, and I'm a pig, an animal, and a rapist who should be ashamed of my physical urges.
Please focus on the individual bad apples, instead of grouping them as "men".
Re: (Score:3)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Insightful)
You are right! The problem with stereotyping all guys the same is a real problem and it's indisputable that it needs to stop.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is very real, but it doesn't change the fact it doesn't apply to everyone here.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, not trolling. Sorry, but there IS a grain of truth in geek misogyny. This toon is a humorous example:
http://www.geeksaresexy.net/20... [geeksaresexy.net]
Also, when was the last time that you saw a woman depicted in a video game that was less than a "C" cup? Sorry, but if you were to go back a few centuries and give a woman a sword and armor, I am pretty sure that the armor would cover more than about six square inches of her body. Sorry, but in video games, women are sex objects (Metroid is the one notable exception that I can think of). Even as protagonists, they will dress scantily, while standing next to a male character that is so covered in so much armor that you can only see his eyes.
Perhaps part of it is that women are, in general, under-represented in geek culture. Guys are attracted to girls, but there are damn few of them floating around in geek circles. So, they go from being "people" to becoming something closer to a "trophy."
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of non-ripped male characters in games. Often you don't even see your own avatar in an FPS. Take GTA for example, all the protagonists have been fairly normal looking guys. Half Life had a scrawny scientist. Even things like Call of Duty has guys who look fit, as if they were part of some kind of military unit, but not ridiculous muscle-man like and always clothed head to toe in armour and combat fatigues.
The portrayal of men in all forms of media is a problem, but it's nothing like as bad as the portrayal of women. For me the worst ones are female scientists. If the scientist was a man they would probably be older, definitely average looking. The female scientist is always young and hot, because having a world class mind on it's own isn't enough.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now you're getting somewhere. I've never seen inappropriate or aggressive behavior towards women in any of the geek/nerd groups I've been in. In fact, I'd say most of them would get strong marks for showing full respect for women. That said, I am certain that reports of specific incidents and groups having a pattern of behavior are real. I recall one of the security conventions had a problem, which somehow didn't surprise me, knowing that's a sub-group of geekdom with its own dynamic.
Generally speaking, I have found the bigger problems tend to go with the more macho types though. Yes, occasionally you hear of a problem with a school group other than a sports team, but in the vast majority of cases, groups of men who are aggressive towards women are groups of men who are GENERALLY aggressive. Drug gangs, low grade thugs, etc., are all far worse, unquestionably, than "geeks".
It really sounds to me like there is a concerted effort to apply labels and groupings to what is really just an age old problem.
Now, on the other hand, can we address the reality that men are FAR more likely than women to be victims of violence, physical intimidation, violent crime, and other physical threats such as military hazards and other job-related physical danger?
The problem here is not that anyone is against ending violence against women. It's that we have blown what is effectively a rare occurrence (dude going nuts) being confused with a non-existent pattern of nerd rage, all being whipped into a social media shitstorm to make PC points in the press.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Funny)
vi users...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Please back up your assertions with some facts. I don't buy for a second that men are more likely to be the victims of violence, intimidation and other physical threats. Men are more likely to do all of those, but they are more likely aimed at women. Was was the last time you logged onto XBox live and didn't hear some called a pussy or a girl or a faggot or some other slur? You know what every one of those are? You are basically calling the person feminine which is only an insult if you believe men are sup
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Informative)
Please back up your assertions with some facts.
Fair enough. Please see table 7: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub... [bjs.gov]
A statistically significant higher percentage of victims of violent crime are male, consistently, across that survey's data.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't buy for a second that men are more likely to be the victims of violence, intimidation and other physical threats
Try looking into it. Crime stats don't lie. Unless of course you think women are getting beaten and just don't talk about it... Ever.
That women are more worried about being violently attacked does not mean they are more likely to be violently attacked. In fact this cultural belief that women have to be constantly worried about violence even though they are far less likely to be violently attacked might be why some people come to the notion that feminine qualities include worrying and weakness.
You going on about how "all women have to worry about it" is the problem. Fuck you and your gender stereotypes. Men have far more to worry about getting mugged and murdered than women do. Do I think that all men have to fear? Hell no. Being afraid of incredibly unlikely events is nothing but learned helplessness.
More than 1% of men are violent to women? Fuck you even more for that. Right now there are 300 000 men beating women in the United States I'm sure.
50 years ago you would have been right in there with the hang all darkies group. Same bullshit paranoia and made up reasons. Same sense of superiority.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't buy for a second that men are more likely to be the victims of violence, intimidation and other physical threats.
It's absolutely true. Go to fbi.gov and look at the stats.
Men are more likely to do all of those, but they are more likely aimed at women.
Wrong. Women do not make up the majority of crime victims.
When was the last time you worried about being raped walking home at night?
Most rape occurs between acquaintances. The prototypical "rapist with a knife" makes up a rather small proportion of these crimes. Again, fbi.gov. Facts are your friends, they help you become educated and disregard biased propaganda promulgated by political groups with an agenda. It sounds like you've been a victim of their false narratives.
Re:What the f*$# is wrong with us? (Score:4, Informative)
digsbo already cited the relevant reference showing that men have more to fear from others than women do, but are you really so suprised that male on male violence is more prevalent than male on female? Who gets in more bar fights? Who is the more likely victim of gang violence? There's still a stigma around hitting women, so when tempers flare in any situation, who is more likely to receive a punch to the face?
That's not how insults work. Sure, the people who started using that insult probably believed that, but words have momentum and growing up in a culture that uses some words derogatorily means you're simply more likely to use them that way when conveying an intention. That doesn't mean the user has given even a moment's thought to what's actually been said. Trying to tie this to some mental attitude towards women as a whole is weak at best.
yet another one of these stories? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...
You say we're all the same.
You don't even know my name.
Sometime somewhere someone wants hurt you and I'm one of them
You think you know about me...
You don't know a damn thing about me!
So I take all the blame...
I'm not all men
I'm just one man
I'm not that man!
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:5, Insightful)
This. So much fucking this.
Men are not rapists. RAPISTS are rapists.
Wasn't the whole point of the civil rights movement of the last 60 years that everybody deserved to be judged on their own actions, merits, and efforts, not by which group they are born in to? This new bullshit where it's now socially "acceptable" to hurl insults, accusations, and blame at certain groups (you know the ones I'm talking about) because they're seen as somehow being descended from THE OPPRESSORS runs contrary to everything we as a society have been working to fix this whole time.
The idea is to stop generalizing and stereotyping groups, not change which groups you stereotype! For fuck's sake... seriously.
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:5, Informative)
>Men are not rapists. RAPISTS are rapists.
Even more relevant in light of that recent study showing that women are almost as likely to be rapists as men, but men are considerably less likely to report being assaulted.
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:5, Interesting)
Most men are rapists if you believe all straight sex is rape. Some people believe that.
Most men could be a rapists if you believe that waking up next to a man who is far uglier than he seemed when you were completely drunk is rape. Some people believe that.
Most men are rapists if you believe that failure to support the radical feminist agenda is tantamount to rape (the reasonable feminist agenda having been achieved a while back - look at pay for women under 35 who've never had a kid - it's higher than similar men now). There are sincere arguments being made at some colleges that formal accusations of rape should not be questionable, that "conviction" (expulsion for the college etc) should follow accusation without any sort of hearing. Because rape culture.
There simple is no "rape culture" in Western civilization by the "physical assault" definition of rape - marrying off girls against their will has been passe for some time now, as has blaming a rape victim for the crime. But there's an entire cultural leadership based on convincing people that they are victims, and so a new definition of "rape' and "rape culture" was needed.
"Rape culture" predominates if you say it includes every man who desires to have sex with a woman who doesn't desire him. So what? How many more thought crimes do we need to invent? It also predominates in some other cultures around the globe still stuck in a medieval mindset, but that's never what the "rape culture" complaint seems to be about.
Re:yet another one of these stories? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...
He usually does.
forever actually (Score:4, Insightful)
How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it?
Forever, because there is no such thing. Only by using the ever-expanding militant-feminist definition of rape which currently stands at "anything, at all, ever, that makes me in the slightest bit uncomfortable" can we possibly believe there's actually a culture of rape. What we ACTUALLY have is a culture of socailly retarded males and females, and culture of feminists preying on the socially retarded females and making them believe that they're entitled to waltz through never being made to feel uncomfortable, ever. This is patently untrue, and no amount of slut-walks can ever create a utopia where a woman - even a man - can leave a ladeeda life.
Re: (Score:3)
I want to know where this "rape culture" is. Because I've lived a long time. I played high school football. I was in a college fraternity. And I've been around a lot of fellow nerdy computer programmers. And never ONCE was I in an environment where it was considered even REMOTELY acceptable to rape women or even seriously joke about it.
So maybe Mr. Chu can tell us where exactly where this "rape culture" is, because it sure as fuck isn't anywhere where I've ever been. But maybe he hangs with a different crow
Re: (Score:3)
Re:forever actually (Score:4, Funny)
I love how you get to define single-point rules that say "if X, then not Y", as if you are an authority on a nebulous concept that hasn't been defined.
Kinda like how you "got" to define OP's claim as "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?"
America has a weed culture, but because it is illegal, people don't usually brag about their use of it, despite our use being one of the highest on the planet.
Quick aside:
lol. "highest."
Back to point:
OK, so the day that someone opens a "rape shop" where a person can walk in and purchase the accoutrements necessary to rape another person (all labeled "not for illegal use," of course), and people start walking around in pro-rape tshirts, having Rapefest concerts in public parks, you can claim that there's a "rape culture" equivalent to the "weed culture."
Until that day comes, your "example" is nothing more than false equivalence.
Re:forever actually (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:forever actually (Score:5, Insightful)
Move along , nothing to see here. (Score:4, Informative)
This must be another of these fake outrage threads.
Fuck you (Score:5, Insightful)
The guy went to the gym and loved to go out and take pics of himself and his BMW. He was not a nerd.
You will have to use the Asians or autists as scapegoats because we are not taking the fall for this one. Go to hell you piece of shit.
this dude is trying like hell to get laid. (Score:3, Funny)
Wonder how its working out for him after this.
I've been under a rock... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of those I know are frightened at the very concept of dating, pretty socially awkward I guess, but kind and gentle caring people who wouldn't even DREAM of hurting anyone. Sure, they'll kick your mental-a** and hurt your coding feelings by pointing out the numerous bugs in your code, and flaws in your theories, and possibly sweep the floor with your ego in gaming, but no way they'd ever even lift a finger to actually hurt you.
Nerds are usually unsure of themselves, usually excellent at SOMETHING and not so much at everything else. This is usually because they have spent so much time coding and learning very complicated stuff that takes a LONG time of anyone's life, so it's bound to steal some time from the usual life that just about anyone else live, learning the ropes of networking and social skills.
I must have been living under a rock the last 30 years or so.
Re: (Score:3)
Well. You can go ahead and just read this comment thread for a start. All the people and reactions he mentions are in this comment thread in spades.
Re: (Score:3)
Dude, seriously, do you not have an emacs mode to tell you it's vi?
Friggin' emacs users, without an electric mode to do it for you, you can't do a damned thing on your own. ;-)
The funniest thing I ever saw was an emacs user stuck on a client site at the console of a Solaris machine which only had vi.
The whining was just pathetic ... but I neeeeed eeeemacs to get any wooooork done. Boo hoo. He was more productive when he couldn't type.
Ah, good times.
Misogyny, Entitlement, and [other classifier] (Score:5, Insightful)
So, while the main threads of this discussion will certainly have no trouble sustaining combustion, what happens if we change the title to:
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Muslims
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Hispanics
Misogyny, Entitlement, and The 1%
Is it still open season on Nerds? Will I not get in trouble for binding "those people" to Nerds, as opposed to Blacks, or Jews, or... ?
Re: (Score:3)
Well, it goes something like this ... you are free to stereotype/insult any group you are a member of more or less with impunity. :-P
You may seriously piss people off if you do it about a group you are not a member of.
Neither is more accurate (they're both probably wrong), but you can at least say "hey, wait a minute, I am a whatever, an
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
You know what'll help? (Score:3)
Telling people who feel like Elliot Rodger that they're not a victim. This will help because 1) they'll believe it, and 2) believing it will solve their issues with reality.
Or perhaps not.
Perhaps it will simply fuel their hatred even more, because now they're even having the reality of their emotions denied, as if they're somehow defective in that respect too.
Assigning victims and victimizers here is completely irrelevant to finding out what's actually wrong with this situation, and how to fix it.
It's not about being a "nerd"... (Score:4, Insightful)
This guy was a complete a-hole, that's a given. He was also from a wealthy family and had a tremendous sense of entitlement. I'd venture that a good part of his misogyny has a basis in that upbringing and entitled lifestyle.
Let's leave the labels out of it and have a real discussion about mental health and social attitudes for a change.
The correct term is Pathological Narcissist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Really people you have it backwards the cause was no misogyny that is a symptom.
If this guy had been gay he would have hated men that did not want to sleep with him.
If this person had been a straight woman she would have hated men that would not sleep with her.
If this person had been a gay woman she would have hated women that would not sleep with her.
They key here is Narcissist. It is selfishness taken to a pathological level. People like that hate those that do not give them what they want.
Re: (Score:3)
If this guy had been gay he would have hated men that did not want to sleep with him.
I had a 50-ish year old dude call me an arrogant little twatwaddle for thinking I wouldn't enjoy him giving me a blowjob. He said he's been suckin' off straight dudes since high school or some stupid thing so he knows I'm just being a prick.
He told me age brings experience and understanding. I told him age makes him old; understanding comes from correctly interpreting experience, up to and including knowing its boundaries. He wrote back a hilarious 4 page single-paragraph rant.
There was a time when
Stupid Blame Game (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is Elliot Rodger being put into the Nerd category? I have not seen anything on this guy that would put him in the Geek or Nerd category. What languages did he code in? What con's did he attend? What was his comic book/manga collection like? What technical degree's did he hold? This discussion has nothing to do with "misogyny entitlement nerds" but a genuine crazy kid.
Just because some guy is a Asperger social reject does not put him into the category of nerd or geek. Elliot has major issues and he blamed women and people who had social skills for his troubles. He was an entitled little shit who thought having a BMW, traveling the world and wearing $500 sweaters would automatically get him the girls. It turns out he lacked the one major component in the Get The Girl Formula that you really need, a personality. He found an outlet in Men's Rights/The Red Pill/Misogyny but he could have found an outlet in any of the other shitty beliefs that exist in our society like 9/11 conspiracies, Little Green Men and the Black President is from Kenya. Blaming a sub collection of a sub portion of our culture is not going to find the answer to the complex problem of what to do with truly mentally ill people.
Re:Stupid Blame Game (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not read TFA?
Chu is using the opportunity that mysogyny is in the spotlight to discuss the problem of mysogyny in his own community, through his own personal experience.
He is not saying that Rodger is a nerd.
Seriously, read TFA, it's a thoughftul piece.
Is it me or is slashdot in real decline ? (Score:3)
Dear Arthur Chu (Score:4, Insightful)
Writing anti-male missives won't get you laid.
Hopping on the misogyny bandwagon will not get you laid.
Until you understand the differences of what women say versus how they act, you will continue to be powerless in your quest for attention.
http://www.returnofkings.com/3... [returnofkings.com]
How was he a "nerd?" (Score:4, Insightful)
It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part
Except for the part where it isn't. The manifesto is a lot of things. It's a case study in narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, social anxiety disorder...you name it, it's in there, and you can spin it however you want.
The kid played WoW, so he must be a geek.
Never mind that he didn't excel in academics, that he never showed any interest in science, mathematics or technology, that he took a handful of liberal arts courses that he had to drop because the only thing he could concentrate on were girls. Does that sound like a geek? No, to me it pretty much sounds like everybody who isn't a geek.
I'm not taking responsibility for Elliot Rodgers. (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, let's point out the obvious: Rodgers killed twice as many men as women.
Which doesn't mean I'm saying violence against women isn't a serious problem, or that I don't care about the two women he killed. Gad are we really that simple-minded that it has to be one or the other? I'm only saying that Rodgers shouldn't be held up as THE paradigm for the way men treat women. Rodgers knew when he posted his manifesto that he was, in effect, writing his own obituary. He deliberately framed his future actions in full, cynical knowledge of society's sexism.
Let me make what should be an obvious point here: we shouldn't accept Rodgers' framing of his actions, for the simple reason he was a twisted person with a nasty agenda. Yes, his stated views on women were ugly, but going by his actions he hated *humanity* and chose targets of opportunity. He not only robbed James Hong, George Chen, David Wang and Christopher Michael-Martinez of collectively some two hundred years of lifespan. He successfully exploited our knee-jerk credulity so as to erase those kids from our consciousness as victims of his crimes.
As for "what is wrong with nerds?", that begs the question. Is there a problem with "nerds"? What is a "nerd" anyway?
The reason for media nerd chic is that feeling marginalized is ironically something most people can identify with. So is feeling emotionally vulnerable, and sometimes even isolated. And we all make regrettable and sometimes embarrassing mistakes in conducting our relationships with other people. But that doesn't mean we can't understand that "no means no", or that it's unpleasant and threatening to have unwanted attentions forced on you.
So if by "nerd" you mean "aggressively unpleasant person who blames other people for their reaction to his obnoxious behavior," well most of us aren't that kind of "nerd". The blockhead opinions of people like that have nothing to do with us.
If by "nerd" you mean "non-coformist who'd rather live with some degree of social marginalization than not act like himself," then you have to show us that this is tantamount to being an obnoxious and possibly violent twerp, which I don't think it is.
Those idiots who cheered Rodgers on are not my fault either. Maybe they're in part my problem, as they are a problem for everyone who has to live in the same society as they do. I may feel *concern* over their actions, but I don't feel a shred of guilt. Somebody else made them blockheads, not me.
Are you sure? (Score:4, Interesting)
"We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
Are you sure?
I mean: I've never been raped. That's a legitimate fear of many women that I'm unlikely to experience outside the penal system. But I've been shoved into walls. I've been dumped in a trash can (that was when I was 5 years old). I've had notebooks knocked from me, signs put on me, been punched, kicked, had my property vandalized, been ridiculed publicly, shot with a slingshot, hit with a car.... all for having been the different kid. All for having been the nerd.
Will I ever *really* know what it's like to be a woman? No. Will a straght woman know what a homosexual man goes through? Will a white person understand the plight of a black one? Will the Jock understand the Nerd? No. Will an American Christian understand the Muslim, Wiccan, or Athiest? No.
There are a lot of cultures of violence; not just the one against women. There are a lot of cultures that dehumanize, not just the one that dehumanizes women. The talking heads on this subject take an unjustified position of universal and unique persecution. Men should look at women as people, while simultaniously the talking head saying it doesn't look at men as people.
And as to this narccissitic murderer. I've no doubt he was masogynist, but it's wrong to say that he was the product of that culture. I've seen this guy before. He's the two kids at Columbine. He's the postal worker that went after his bosses. He suffers from narccissism and a feeling of persecution (which may have at least some level of truth) and blames others for his misfortune. In Columbine it was jocks. With many, it's their boss or neighbor. For this kid it was women (among others: He also lashes out at a lack of friends. IIRC: The majority of his victims were male).
So yes: There's a real problem with a culture in the US that dehumanizes women. It's real. It's bad. It needs to be fixed. It is, however, not unique; and it is not the reason for this particular murder spree.
Ground down (Score:5, Informative)
I haven't posted on Slashdot in years, but the response to this story made me want to come out of the woodwork.
So far In the comments I've seen:
--He isn't really a nerd! NOFP!
--Nerds don't hit on girls, so NOFP!
--He's using a stereotype! I'm not that guy, so NMFP!
I'm a woman working in a technical field and I've been at this game since 1996. In my current company, the men here outnumber me 9-1. When you add in a love of geeky pursuits (at one convention, I remember counting 3 women in a group of 500 men), I've spent a lot of time being one of the guys.
In the beginning, it was exciting -- thrilling!-- to be the only woman in a meeting. I was the exception! I was going to make it! I was better than those girly-girls with their silly pursuits. But, not only do I realize that was a stupid-ass position that reinforced the perceptions of women's interests being lesser than men, I'm just tired of it. Tired of little backhanded bullshit comments. Tired of having to laugh at stupid sexist shit to be one of the boys. And especially tired of being told there's no problem. And this is not just me. Again, it's necessarily a small data pool (see % above), but I've never met a woman who didn't have at least 3 stories about bullshit at work. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04... [nytimes.com]
Again, it's not that I can't hack it. I can. This isn't a poor me, come and save me post. At this point, my hide is tempered steel -- fucking bring it, world. It's that I shouldn't have to, and as I said above, it's fucking exhausting.
And it's more than just eating shit at work: We live in a world where literally yesterday a woman was stoned to death by her family for failing to live her life they way they wanted. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/world/asia/pakistan-pregnant-woman-killed/) . Our culture shames a woman for accepting sexual advances and blames her if she rejects them (http://nypost.com/cover/#covers-1401159702). There is literally no way to win as a woman.
Look, guys. Even if you've done a ton of soul searching, and you genuinely believe you're not part of the problem, go to the next step. The women around you are hurting. They're exhausted. They're being gaslighted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting) left, right and center. So if you genuinely think you're not making things works, figure out how to make it better. Find a woman to mentor. If you're in a meeting, and a woman's voice isn't getting heard, help her (although, please avoid mansplaining (i.e. "What Jane really means to say is...."). If someone say some bullshit about women in your workplace, call them out on it.
Sorry for this long cri de coeur, but you guys are my peeps and the responses broke my heart. You're my guys, my people, my tribe. Can't you back us up?
So, to sum this up. (Score:4, Insightful)
Men, especially nerds, are horrible, mean, vicious people and all men should be treated as such at all times. Women, on the other hands, are always innocent victims of abuse, are always under threat, and must live their lives like they are about to be raped because men.
So, women, do us all a favor, and just stop. Stop interacting with men. Stop talking to men, stop dating men, stop having sex with men, stop marrying men. Just stop, because if you hate and fear men so much that is exactly what any sane person would do.
I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing how there is something intrinsically wrong with me and that I should be feared because I have a Y chromosome. Fuck you too. I haven't hit, let alone raped, any woman, ever. I have been hit three times by a woman and not once did I retaliate as I could have. I took it. But, if I had hit her back, I would have been the bad guy.
If women wouldn't reward the behavior of bad men, then there wouldn't be so many bad men, but, as we know, women love bad boys right up until that bad boy is bad to them. When that happens to a woman, she thinks back to all the bad men she has dated and concludes all men are bad because the problem couldn't possibly her and her choices.
Don't want to be abused or get raped? Don't be friends with or date immature, over-entitled, sociopathic bad boys with a history of hurting other people including women. Start looking at character instead of abs, or clothes, or height or cars. Stop going to clubs, getting wasted, and giving your number to that hot guy in the sick shirt, let alone banging him in a one night stand. Find a better place to meet guys or shut the fuck up about how horrible the men you fuck are because that is you having shallow and/or bad taste.
Oh, and when you get drunk and then go home and fuck a guy, you weren't raped. You were irresponsible. If you can't keep your panties on and legs closed when you get drunk, don't get drunk.
Not my horse, not my wagon (Score:4)
This all falls well within the not-my-problem camp. There are problems in this world that are not mine, nor are they not my responsibility to solve. There are plenty of women alive to solve them. And if 1 in 6 have this problem, then there are literally hundreds of millions to solve them. Why the hell do you need me to do anything? If 1 in 6 women is too lazy to do anything about it, then really it doesn't fall on me to solve the problem for them.
I've got problems of my own, and I don't ask 1 in 6 women to solve them for me. I think they are more than capable of solving this one for themselves.
Last I checked, male university students don't get free escorts home at night, yet female university students around here do.
Me solving their problems would go against everything they fought for. I supported women's equal rights. Let them enjoy their equal rights.
They have the equal right to solve their own problems. I sure as hell won't fight their battles for them.
Don't just blame the guy (Score:5, Interesting)
This results in a common, perverse situation. Women say they want men to respect their wishes. Nice guys (most geeks are nice guys) listen to this, and leave the woman alone after they ask her out and she tells them no. Jerks and abusive guys however don't. They persist in bugging a woman they like who's told them no, and somehow their strategy has a higher success rate at starting a relationship than the geek strategy of respect and listening to what the woman says she wants. Of the married couples I've asked, a clear majority started off with the woman disliking the man and being annoyed at his attentions, before he "won her over" and she fell for him.
So we have a fundamental disconnect between how men are told they should behave, and the behavior which actually works. Consequently a lot of they guys who try to be nice to and respectful of women and treat them as they say they want to be treated, end up being frustrated by "their inability" to enter a relationship. It's not at all surprising that some of them snap and leap to the extreme opposite of their previous strategy (from respecting women to misogyny).
(As a side note, I suspect this is why a significant fraction of women are in abusive relationships. Many women spurn the nice guys who wouldn't abuse her, who give up when she tells them she's not interested. The guys who would abuse her do not respect her wishes and persist, eventually winning her over, and she ends up in an abusive relationship. Look at women who seem to jump from one abusive relationship to another, and I think you'll find someone who puts too much emphasis on the man's persistence as an indicator of how much he likes her. That is probably the perfect filter for eliminating all but the most abusive guys who have zero respect the woman's wishes.)
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
women are also bitches.
So what? You're an asshole. That does not give me the right to take your life.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's because this entire submission should be modded -5 Flamebait
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Boy, that escalated quickly.
Because this whole discussion is silly. Plenty of nerds are misogynistic jerks. But plenty of non-nerds are as well, and I have seen NO evidence that it is any more common among nerds than among the population in general. In the absence of evidence, associating "nerd culture" with misogynism is just stupid.
Throughout my career, I have worked with many engineers, programmers, and other nerds. My experience is that they are the least misogynistic people I have ever met, and they have mostly been polite, professional, and welcoming to their female co-workers. Have you ever worked with salesmen? Or construction workers? Nerds are saints by comparison.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is that those groups aren't as self-blaming as nerds are, and they aren't so quick to take the bait. It's like if you gathered a bunch of guys in a room and shouted "misogynist!" and the nerd amongst them said, "I'm sorry!" even though he didn't really do anything.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
people like you come out and say it's not worth discussing
I didn't say it wasn't worth discussing. I said it was silly to discuss the "problem" in the absence of any evidence that the "problem" actually exists. These discussions always start with the presumption that nerds are all a bunch of women haters, yet base that presumption on an anecdote about a woman that was groped a few years ago by some jerk at a game conference. Sure, some nerds are sexist jerks. Some are also racists, child abusers, pedophiles, and even murders. Should we also discuss how racism, child abuse and murder are part of "nerd culture"? These are not "nerd problems", they are "human problems", and should be discussed as such. Misogyny is no different. It has nothing to do with "nerds" or "nerd culture" specifically. If you have some evidence that says otherwise, I am happy to hear it.
Re: Yeah, but.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem isn't misogyny itself, on an individual basis, any more than the problem is invidualized misandry. The problem is when such hate is institutionalized, and I think it's arguable that institutionalized misogyny is at its lowest point in decades. If you start trying to tell individuals what's right and wrong to think, then you are dangerously close to Orwellian thoughtcrime for my tastes. What matters is how people act, which is where any protections need to be placed.
Re: (Score:3)
Boy, that escalated quickly.
It could be worse. Someone could have brought up Hitler. ...
Dammit.
Re:Yeah, but.... (Score:5, Funny)
Boy, that escalated quickly.
It could be worse. Someone could have brought up Hitler. ...
Dammit.
No worries, it doesn't count as a Godwin until you actually compare someone to Hitler.
Carry on.
What are you, some kind of meme Nazi???
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Yeah, but.... (Score:4)
Women are human beings. And YOU are an ass. There, fixed that for you.
Re:Open season on the white male (Score:5, Insightful)
Every single day more people ar ekilled with guns due to gang violence than happened by this one sick fuck, yet we focus on the sick fuck rather than on gang culture??
Re:99 nerds polite to females (Score:4, Interesting)
And the number of assholes is way under 1%.
You may be right. But it's also above 0.1%, which in any decent-sized convention is enough to ensure a few assholes. What's more important is that almost all the times, the assholes' assholey behavior towards women is not challenged by the non-assholes present. They tend to just watch.
I base this on having attended a few conventions with female colleagues and observing how they are treated. There's a sufficiently-high number of misogynists in geek culture and a distressingly-high number of apathetic bystanders to make many tech conventions pretty unwelcoming for women.
Re: (Score:3)
I wasn't going to post in this thread because honestly I believe topics like this are lose-lose. But then I read this and.... logic like this not only illustrates that exact point, but it also burns my neurons: if geeks agree, they're agreeing to being rapists. If they don't agree, they're just defending their misogyny (and hence are rapists). Glad to see this isn't a witch-hunt...