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No Shortage In Tech Workers, Advocacy Groups Say

samzenpus posted about 4 months ago | from the I'll-do-it dept.

Businesses 401

sabri writes To have a labor shortage or not to have, that's the question. According to the San Jose Mercury News: Last month, three tech advocacy groups launched a labor boycott against Infosys, IBM and the global staffing and consulting company ManpowerGroup, citing a "pattern of excluding U.S. workers from job openings on U.S soil." They say Manpower, for example, last year posted U.S. job openings in India but not in the United States." "It's getting pretty frustrating when you can't compete on salary for a skilled job," said Rich Hajinlian, a veteran computer programmer from the Boston area. "You hear references all the time that these big companies ... can't find skilled workers. I am a skilled worker."

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Two sides to every issue (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395871)

While it is true that businesses create job descriptions specifically designed to eliminate American workers, it is *also* true that plenty of American IT workers think they are super-awesome and really aren't. They have skills, but they don't actually have the specific skill the business needs, and the business doesn't want someone they have to train (especially not when someone they don't have to train is already available). Furthermore, they don't want to hire someone who has a poor work ethic due to this inflated sense of self-worth, when people are available who will work hard out of gratitude for the job. While it is true that not every American is like this, many are, and if hiring foreigners avoids them, all the better. Also, a foreigner is less likely to job-hop for a better salary after a year.

Re:Two sides to every issue (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395915)

What about the large number of job descriptions that are written up that essentially no single individual could fill? You know what I mean, postings that have 15 required disparate skills, with 5+ years experience in each?

Then these companies use the lack of qualified applicants as an excuse to go shopping overseas. Let's face it, the number of companies pulling this kind of stunt FAR outweigh the number of "think they're super-awesome and really aren't" employees.

Re: Two sides to every issue (4, Interesting)

Octorian (14086) | about 4 months ago | (#47396019)

With many of these odd job descriptions you speak of, I suspect many of them are cases where said company has already identified the specific individual they want to get an H-1B visa for. So this is essentially a copy of their unique resume. They just need to publicly post the job to fulfill a legal requirement before they can get them the visa.

Re: Two sides to every issue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396181)

Which means that they are flaunting the spirit, if not the letter, of the law.

Re: Two sides to every issue (3, Informative)

m00sh (2538182) | about 4 months ago | (#47396497)

With many of these odd job descriptions you speak of, I suspect many of them are cases where said company has already identified the specific individual they want to get an H-1B visa for. So this is essentially a copy of their unique resume. They just need to publicly post the job to fulfill a legal requirement before they can get them the visa.

It is not for H1B, it is after the H1B to get the green card. There is a step called employment verification or something like that.

Basically, it's a step to get someone off H1B status and into a permanent resident of the US.

Re:Two sides to every issue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396383)

5+ years with heavy Win9 and Java 8 experience required to apply.
With the lack of qualified domestic applicants we are forced to go shopping overseas and need more H-1B's
Sure...
The corporate bull shit machine is running full speed !
Believe that shit then I've got a bridge to sell cheap, it collects tolls and will make you rich!

Re:Two sides to every issue (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396391)

It's probably more like HR incompetence than any company conspiracy theory. HR don't understand tech. Recruiters don't understand tech. Having them both looking for and vetting candidates prior to giving the resumes to the team leaders is often counter productive.

I've been on both sides of coin many times and every time dealing with HR and or recruiters is incredibly frustrating.

Right now we're hiring. Truth is we probably get 6 times the number of H1B applicants compared to US applicants. Many US applicants don't want to relocate, or have several years experience and just-aren't-good. It's rare that we actually get any US applicants coming out of university. There's a good chance that one of the six H1B applicants is good, motivated, hardworking and smart... hence we tend to hire more of them. Most of them have multiple masters degrees, usually completed in US universities.

Re:Two sides to every issue (3, Insightful)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47396423)

easy to get multiple masters degrees when you don't have to pay for them or need skills other then being able to cram for tests

Re:Two sides to every issue (2)

cascadingstylesheet (140919) | about 4 months ago | (#47395981)

Also, a foreigner is less likely to job-hop for a better salary after a year.

Um, yeah; especially if their visa doesn't allow them to.

Re:Two sides to every issue (3, Informative)

Cryacin (657549) | about 4 months ago | (#47396163)

I came across a very interesting thing. It seems that for several of the large corps that I consult to, their biggest problem with onshore Indian resources (read resources in India) is job hopping. They do it more than the west. I call shenanigans from a shill.

Re:Two sides to every issue (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396271)

That's interesting, but irrelevant. GP's point was that H1-Bs in America currently have two options: 1) Remain at current sponsoring employer or 2) go home, because quitting means immediate revocation of their visa. Having to return to your home country does kinda put a damper on one's ability to job hop...

Re:Two sides to every issue (4, Informative)

sabri (584428) | about 4 months ago | (#47396481)

H1-Bs in America currently have two options: 1) Remain at current sponsoring employer or 2) go home, because quitting means immediate revocation of their visa.

2B: Hop to an employer that is willing to sponsor a change in their H1-B.

From Wikipedia: [wikipedia.org]

Despite a limit on length of stay, no requirement exists that the individual remain for any period in the job the visa was originally issued for. This is known as H-1B portability or transfer, provided the new employer sponsors another H-1B visa

From the employees perspective, there is one problem with this: once an employer has started the permanent residency (greencard) process, it is a bad idea to move because you'll be starting all over again.

Re:Two sides to every issue (2)

Lumpy (12016) | about 4 months ago | (#47396453)

Gotta love rules that almost enforce a form of slavery.

Re:Two sides to every issue (4, Insightful)

jacobsm (661831) | about 4 months ago | (#47396121)

Total BS. I'd take a American IT worker with an inflated ego over a corporate bean counter any day. I've been in the IT field since 1979, and trust me, I'm an expert in my speciality. They might be able to replace me with someone and pay then 1/2 of what I make, but they're not going to get my skillset.

Knowing what to do when things are going along swimmingly is easy. When the shit hits the fan, getting the corporate mainframe back running in minutes rather than hours, or G-d forbid days is worth every penny they pay me. I know it, the people who've been working with me for *mumble* years know it.

A bean counter, I doubt it.

Re:Two sides to every issue (5, Interesting)

war4peace (1628283) | about 4 months ago | (#47396289)

Total BS. I'd take a American IT worker with an inflated ego over a corporate bean counter any day. I've been in the IT field since 1979, and trust me, I'm an expert in my speciality. They might be able to replace me with someone and pay then 1/2 of what I make, but they're not going to get my skillset.

Do you realize you just confirmed what GP's saying?

"Trust me, I'm THAT good".
"No foreigner has my skillset".
"I'm an expert".

Seen quite a few people with exactly those statements who were smashed from a skillset perspective by some guy whose name one needs half a day to spell properly (e.g. Kumar Bheemasandralakshminarayana).
Never say never.

On a more general note, more often than not people substitute a thick accent with lack of intelligence. "He can't speak English very well therefore he's dumb". They couldn't be further from the truth.

Not somuch (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396485)

The relevant observation is that the bean counters deciding on hiring don't know, in many cases, what skills
are actually needed and have no idea how to look for evidence of someone who learns fast and thinks on
his feet. When a "skill" means "claimed experience with version X of program Y", you miss the more
important issues of "knowing 6 or 8 programs that do what program Y does, knows how they work, how to
build new ones...". Such a person is much more likely to be able to work with version X+1, X+2 ... of
program Y, or with whatever replaces program Y later.

I've seen far too much of the lack of such capabilities, and too much of people with evident
independent thinking skills being missed, to doubt the problem is real.

I should add that it is much harder to get useful stuff from a guy whose English is incorrect
and/or difficult to understand. (Of course I'd tend also to mark down the ungrammatical
sich as the above's "substitute a thick accent with lack of intelligence". One may
"take a thick accent as an indication of lack of intelligence", but the former usage is
marginally unintelligible. He who can't speak good English may or may not be unintelligent.
He is likely to be unintelligible.
    (Numerous Americans are not good with English and numerous Indians I have known are
excellent at it by the way. However poor grasp of the language combined with an accent
that is hard to parse, or habits of poor enunciation, make it hard to work with someone...
hard enough I think such folks should not be hired in the first place.)

Re: Two sides to every issue (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396529)

Accent isn't the issue, but the assumption that a H1B is going to be of the same quality at a lower price, which is hogwash because it's an assumption that all things are equal. I'm a senior-level developer (at least according to my past job titles), and I've recommended really brilliant H1B candidates. OTOH, I've had H1B candidates tell me that you can instantiate abstract classes and JavaScript has protected and private methods. Meanwhile, I've worked alongside a number of talented US-born developers, and I've interviewed US-born candidates who didn't know how to create an array. The moral of the story is talent is irrespective of your county of origin, and so is ignorance; sadly, the decision makers (along with most of /.) can't see the difference.

Re:Two sides to every issue (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396327)

I was talking with a friend who just retired from a tech job. He was tired of dealing with people who didn't know how to efficiently troubleshoot. He told me of one problem where a worker had replaced a part with a similar one built to different specs, and that caused the problem. The two workers had been troubleshooting the wrong piece of equipment of three pieces. After asking why they were working on the wrong piece, he scanned the two other pieces, and instantly noticed an incorrectly colored part. The two other workers were amazed, and asked him how he could troubleshoot so quickly. He replied that they were working on the assumption that the most complicated possible cause of the problem was the problem. He was operating on the assumption that one should first check the simple things.

I'm sure his company will miss his skills. (Good luck, Norm!)

Re:Two sides to every issue (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about 4 months ago | (#47396495)

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

It works.

Re:Two sides to every issue (5, Informative)

Old VMS Junkie (739626) | about 4 months ago | (#47396143)

Yeah, and the American workers laid off to be replaced by outsourcers at 1/3 the price, that's the workers' fault too. Capitalism will always leverage poverty and when you can hire someone who thinks that having a flush toilet is a luxury over someone who expects a decent wage, you can pretty much count on the switch being made.

Re:Two sides to every issue (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396207)

1/3 the wage for 1/20 the functionality.

I see management issues driving this rather than true economics. First, managers count dollars per headcount, totally ignoring dollars per successful project. Second, if management has more people reporting to them then management uses it as justification for promotions for themselves. Third, it's slave labor that management can abuse, force to work unpaid hours, and can't escape to a better job. Abuse is far easier than skill and results.

Re:Two sides to every issue (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396193)

s/American/Indian/g

Effect? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395873)

A labor boycott against tech companies that don't want to hire Americans? It's hard to see that as being effective.

it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395879)

The US is awash in certain kinds of skilled tech workers: Java programmers, web programmers, iOS app programmers, and more. It's not hard to find them, nor is there any kind of shortage.

But for more complex work, the best qualified workers are from overseas. Go look in any US comp-sci graduate program, and try to find the Americans. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Back? How many did you find? 10%? 20% And from my experience interviewing them, they are often not the cream of the crop. Don't get me wrong, there are some really top notch American students coming out of graduate programs, but that's the exception, not the rule. If you want a deep understanding of theory, rather than another Java coder, it's hard to find that in the US. Not impossible. Just hard.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (5, Informative)

dreamchaser (49529) | about 4 months ago | (#47395903)

I'll call you on your trolling and bs. My wife works in the Comp Sci department at a major university and also works *with* people in the programs at others. Well over half the grad students in most programs are born and raised in the US, and many of the best candidates are from the US. This story is about outsourcing based on cost, not on 'deep understanding of theory'. If you're not trolling you're just woefully wrong.

Re: it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (4, Informative)

Octorian (14086) | about 4 months ago | (#47396051)

I've been around such graduate departments before. Having a department of 50+ students where you can count the Americans on one hand actually seems exactly like what I remember.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395959)

The vast majority of tech companies are not looking for anyone who has more than a B.S. degree.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396217)

More like some "degree" on a napkin. I once met 3 chinese post-grad students that did less for their doctorate than I did for my bachelors.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395975)

As someone that has managed outsourcing to six different countries, you're wrong. The worst people I've hired here are better than the PhDs I've hired elsewhere. The only reason to outsource is because of the massive shortage of tech workers. I've only interviewed a single Java developer in person the past year despite having a full time recruiter, offering a $10k referral bonus, advertising nonstop on Craigslist, and even paying the ridiculous amount of money to advertise on monster.com. Offering low six figures a year here in the Seattle area can't even get people in the door.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (5, Informative)

Old VMS Junkie (739626) | about 4 months ago | (#47396167)

"The only reason to outsource is because of the massive shortage of tech workers." I call bullshit grande. I'm living through an outsource right now and it's ALL ABOUT COST. The existing help desk, first level support, and second level support were shown the door and replaced with 50% off bargain employees from Elbonia and elsewhere. Competence had zero to do with it. Uptime of our apps has tanked, ticket queues are ballooning, the new support folks can't find their ass with both hands and a map... but they sure are cheaper.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (3, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | about 4 months ago | (#47396463)

It's not that the new support staff is incompetent and useless. It's that your company's executives are incompetent and useless.

Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395987)

The US is awash in certain kinds of skilled tech workers: Java programmers, web programmers, iOS app programmers, and more. It's not hard to find them, nor is there any kind of shortage.

But for more complex work, the best qualified workers are from overseas. Go look in any US comp-sci graduate program, and try to find the Americans. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Back? How many did you find? 10%? 20% And from my experience interviewing them, they are often not the cream of the crop. Don't get me wrong, there are some really top notch American students coming out of graduate programs, but that's the exception, not the rule. If you want a deep understanding of theory, rather than another Java coder, it's hard to find that in the US. Not impossible. Just hard.

OK, so let's go with what you said about the dearth of Americans in comp-sci grad programs is true and that certain high-level skills are found only in people in those programs. How many people are we talking about in all the good schools grad programs? a few thousand? And how many jobs are there that REQUIRE the skills found only in the grad school programs? a few thousand, maybe?

However, there are about 600,000 H1B workers in the USA. How many of these do you believe have the skills only found in comp-sci grad programs, or more to the point, how many of those don't have and don't need grad school comp-sci skills?

My point is that while what you said is true, it has nothing to do with what the complaint is.
The H1B program is designed to obtain the kinds of people you were talking about, but the program is in fact being used to hire an enormous numbers of very ordinary people whose main feature is they work for less money.

19,000 (5, Insightful)

Lehk228 (705449) | about 4 months ago | (#47395887)

there certainly is a shortage of tech workers in the US willing to work for 19,000/year

Re:19,000 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395969)

But not elsewhere. So why in the wide wide world of sports would they hire American's? It just doesn't make any sense. It is not life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and a guaranteed 6 figure income. That is not how any of this works.

It probably will not go over well in this venue, but I just don't see how people can get so worked up at companies for doing what's in the company's best interests. There's a reason they don't want to hire American's, and it's because they cost too much. The fact that people in other countries are lining up to do the same work for cheap is concrete proof that it isn't as difficult work as you think.

I have a theory, just a theory mind you, but it makes sense to me, that people think we're still in the same circumstance we were in 20 years ago, when people who could operate and program computers well were genuinely hard to find. The only people back then with those skills were people who were honestly, genuinely interested in computers just for the sake of them, not for money, but because they were fucking cool. Now, everyone thinks they're cool and everyone who's left thinks they're a ticket to wealth. Sometimes they can be. But it ain't a sure thing. And now the rest of the world has caught up, and is demanding to be let into the pool, too. Welcome to the world everyone else has had to live in for quite a long time, now, and enjoy your stay here.

Re:19,000 (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396015)

If you are going to do business in America, then you need to hire Americans. Otherwise don't expect the benefit of doing business in our economy. Don't reap the rewards of safety and US government sponsorship if you aren't going to contribute to our economy by hiring local. Stop being leeches.

Re:19,000 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396311)

>going to do business in America, then you need to hire Americans
m-muh free trade

Re:19,000 (2)

fyngyrz (762201) | about 4 months ago | (#47396357)

Sounds nice, but without explicit control over what American companies are allowed to do at/across the border, (and foreign companies the other way) it's not going to happen. Right now, the door is wide open in every way: Hire offshore and have the hires work here *or* there, keep your money offshore and avoid taxes with blissful ease, manufacture elsewhere, all the while you're paying off congress and whatever agencies are involved.

Sure, corporations are people. Sociopaths. Psychopaths. Those kinds of people. Evil slimeballs, primarily. Exceptions are very rare, and will remain so, as long as being competitive means one company has to take advantage of the same things the next one over does.

That's the way it works now. And unless you can forward larger envelopes to congress (directly, indirectly, or metaphorically) than big business can, or somehow make congress actually ethical and focused on the betterment of the country, this is only going to become more so. Money for election chests. Sweet land deals for cousin George. Fully paid fact finding junkets. Post-congress speaking deals. Guaranteed book advances, complete with ghostwriter, sales irrelevant. Well paid lobbyist positions, commentator positions, corporate vice presidential or other high paid positions... or money... or a sweet deal on a boat, or a house, or whatever, all for 2nd cousins of course. It's so corrupt and ingrained you can't possibly picture it until you've had an inside view (yes, I have.)

Today, you want a great job? Start your own business. Are you really great at programming? Write a great program. Are you really great at electronics? Create a great device. The internet of things is rising, your opportunity is knocking. Real AI needs done (oooo, hard.) Are you really great at mechanicals? Create a wonderful mechanical thing. These are the *only* doors that remain open to technical people in general. Easy? Hell no. But there it is. Otherwise, change career tracks while you still can. Finance. Lawyers (it's the dark side, all right, but it's also a license to print money, especially with the extremely deep collection of bad law we have now.) Nursing -- medicine looks good right now, but doctors... not so sure.

Otherwise, prepare to be lowballed, then fall (or be thrown) from the workforce segment you're qualified for as you age. Also, just as a PS, you'll note that above, the apologists consistently talk about who is learning what in school. The underlying message is clear: Once you're out of school and if you manage to improve yourself, you're not particularly hirable. They're not even looking at/for you.

That's just the way it is. Be proactive and possibly suffer, or just definitely suffer. Choose.

Re:19,000 (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 4 months ago | (#47396049)

The fact that people in other countries are lining up to do the same work for cheap is concrete proof that it isn't as difficult work as you think.

Or, y'know, that cost-of-living varies by location and that salaries are a function of the relative strengths of the parties' positions (which are in part influenced by how difficult a job is; but only in part)...

The people 'getting so worked up' are doing so because the company's best interests are directly at odds with their own, and if they had any lingering doubts about how the story ends, they can just ask those once-practically-middle-class manufacturing workers in rustbelt hellholes. Its...totally unshocking... how touchy people get when you threaten their continued economic viability.

Re:19,000 (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396205)

This still doesn't address the issue of why everyone feels a company should be forced to hire American workers for a higher wage when they could get the same work done elsewhere, cheaper. It's almost like extorting them, making them hire the 'union guys' for the extra cash, I'd hate to see something terrible happen to you if you didn't.
If you can give a good reason why they should be forced to spend more money to hire Americans to do a job that by it very nature is not tied to a particular geographic location, it would go a long way towards helping me understand why we should expect them to do it. Perhaps Americans are just "that much better" at these tasks, American Exceptionalism personified, so much so that hiring them saves 10x the premium down the road in avoided fuck-ups and security breaches. I don't know, I'm not in the biz.
But I do own an awful lot of stock in a lot of different companies (none that I've seen mentioned so far here, though) and if any of them institute a strict 'hire American no matter the cost' policy, well, I'm out. It doesn't make any rational sense. And corporations are not people, and they do not (nor should they) be nationalistic or overly patriotic. They are there to make money, that's their raison d'être. They look out for the shareholders, not the employees, at least not any more for the employees than they need to in order to make more money for the shareholders.
Sometimes, when I'm shopping and I have some extra time, I'll look to see where different things are made. I'm willing to pay a premium, usually about 10%, for things that are made in America. But that's just my decision, I shouldn't be forced to and I shouldn't feel guilty if I'm in a hurry or hungover or whatever and I just grab the cheapest one that looks like it'll get the job done. And don't even get me started on 'Made in America' versus 'Assembled in America' or 'American Company' or that type of thing.

Re:19,000 (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396403)

Companies based in America should hire Americans because it benefits America (and Americans). If said companies would like to operate out of Europe, then sure, hire whoever you want. However, if your gonna operate your company out of America, and most likely use tax loopholes to avoid paying your share of taxes for the infrastructure, etc. that you use, then yeah, you should benefit America (and Americans) by preferring to hire Americans.

Re:19,000 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396057)

Infosys, IBM and other big US companies aren't looking for skilled workers, they are looking for a bunch of monkeys which can perform a specific trick.
If the trick isn't amusing to the audience anymore they are able to easily discard of them.
Along with the minimum wage these (sometimes very skilled) workers are willing to work for, makes them very attractive.

And big companies only think in terms of quantity when it comes to their employees, not being able to do some magic with just a few qualified people.

Re:19,000 (5, Insightful)

Duhavid (677874) | about 4 months ago | (#47396239)

"company's best interests"

Does that company want to sell it's product at "American" prices? Then it needs people ( customers, you know ) that *earn* "American" wages.

Re:19,000 (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395971)

This is true. Non-US workers essentially take part of what would be their pay in the form of getting to come to the US to work, and probably eventually get citizenship.

Eventually, US workers will have to do things to reduce the desirability of coming to the US for non-citizen workers. Like shooting them, lynching them, dragging them behind pickup trucks... you know, the usual.

Yes, I know that's horrible, and I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that. But when corporations don't obey the law, and even the government doesn't obey the law, citizens will start to wonder why the hell they should obey it.

Re:19,000 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396027)

This is bullshit. You don't get less jobs if you have more people in the market. They all got to eat and a room to live in. The idea is that a market has N jobs to offer is stupid. Its a market for crying out loud! Everyone sells something.

Re:19,000 (1)

Lehk228 (705449) | about 4 months ago | (#47396087)

what is needed is not violence against H1B workers, it's decent IT and programming unionization that is needed.

with combined political clout to fight against the existence of the H1B program we would stand a chance of maintaining decent wages. Existing H1B workers should be offered the choice of Lawful Permanent Resident so they can stay if they want or return to their home country.

Re:19,000 (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396135)

Ah yes, I look forward to paying 1/3 of my income in "dues" while being disallowed to code in Java since I'm only "licensed" in Ruby and Perl....

Re:19,000 (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 4 months ago | (#47396489)

what about the power to tell your boss my license is on the line and I will not sign off on that buggy rushed POS code that your want out now.

Re:19,000 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396253)

what is needed is not violence against H1B workers.

I agree! (I'm the guy you're replying to) I'm not advocating violence. I'm merely predicting it.

I really hope I'm wrong.

Re:19,000 (2)

Old VMS Junkie (739626) | about 4 months ago | (#47396177)

DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner. When you take someone who craps in a hole where they grew up, paltry wages seem like they hit the friggin' lottery.

Re:19,000 (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about 4 months ago | (#47396319)

Just like America and Europe were about 150 years ago.

What some cynics in the West call our "race to the bottom", these dirt-floor nations with billions are rocketing upwards in quality, and no doubt length, of life, and they call it a boon, and a "finally, it's about time!" moment.

Re:19,000 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396407)

I'd easily work for $19,000/yr, but that's only because I haven't been able to score a job in a decade. I'm reaaaaaly bad at job searching. Since I can't find a job in the past decade, I've been making computer games in my spare time. I have 3 published titles now as of last week. I'm posting anonymously because I get lots of seething hate for when I solicit the Internet for a job at about minimum wage. It doesn't matter if grads from my school average $89,000/yr, and I have a lot more experience on them... If I can't get ANY job, the only thing I can think is to work for less. If you have a telecommute job for me, post an email to get a hold of you at. I can make iPhone/Android/Web games/aps primarily, but I can also do some general C/C++ code if you want.

I'm also good at designing systems for the future. The last person to describe their start up in a tech incubator I surprised by telling him what he should be doing and that was what he figured was the optimal method.

Not to worry (0)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about 4 months ago | (#47395895)

Soon the market for US based programmers will be flooded by a new wave of corporate-sponsored graduates fresh and ready to be burned out, thus driving programmer wages down to "competitive" levels.

Thanks Google!

Re:Not to worry (5, Interesting)

Lumpy (12016) | about 4 months ago | (#47396503)

Dear silly grad. your skills in C# are worthless.

Want to make really good money? Learn how to manage an AS400 completely. There are incredibly few that can and there are a LARGE number of companies still using them. So you can demand $65.00 an hour.

Hell my company pays a guy $160 an hour to come in for 10 hours a week to work on our systems. HE WORKS 10 HOURS A WEEK and takes home $1600.

Those of you going into CS are morons, Supporting old tech that companies will not upgrade is where the real money is at.

Not much sign of skill... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395899)

Our company bought several million dollars of IBM products and services a couple of years ago. No sign that any skilled tech went into either the development or support of that stuff. Their salesmen did a good job of blowing smoke into our VP's face though.

Re:Not much sign of skill... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395941)

I'm pretty sure IBM paid a hooker or two to do the blowing.

Keywords (1)

masterofthumbs (2881445) | about 4 months ago | (#47395901)

Skilled worker [that costs too much for their profit margins].

if facebook/google/et al wants to hire me (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395907)

i'll happily work there. let's start the bidding at $300k/year, do I hear $350k?

The goal of 1st world countries (5, Interesting)

Maxo-Texas (864189) | about 4 months ago | (#47395919)

To employ people for $5,000 and sell products to people who make $80,000.

They do not see the fundamental problem.

It will resolve itself. Wages in china and india are up to $5,000 now and still doubling every 2-4 years (lower wages doubling faster).

Of course, that leaves the problem of robotics- which right now- today- can do work for less than poverty level wages in most of the world- and are only getting better an cheaper.

Robot repair jobs are two orders of magnitude less (1 worker and robots replaces 1000 workers). Automated procedures is replacing most of the thinking jobs.

The only jobs left will be "creative" jobs. Where the creative part of your jobs is less than half of your job- look for outsourcing. And about, oh, at least half of the global population isn't well suited for creative jobs since they are (by definition) below average intelligence.

Either a free stuff utopia or some kind of really terrible future is just down the road.
Hopefully after I'm dead of course.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (3, Interesting)

blue trane (110704) | about 4 months ago | (#47395979)

Free stuff utopia. Government provides a basic income to all who want it, financed at zero cost through the Fed. Biz pays whatever low wages it wants so there's no wage-price spiral. Challenges stimulate individuals to innovate disruptively on their own without having to work for a business (unless they want to). Standards of living rise faster, there is more leisure time, and poverty is eliminated.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396079)

That's probably how it will work in many places that aren't the United States, yes.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396399)

"Government provides a basic income to all who want it"

The money has to come from somewhere - namely taxes on the people who do work. When there are less people earning money there is less money tax. When there is less money to tax, the solution is to borrow and print. Ask Germany how that works out in the end.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (1)

Livius (318358) | about 4 months ago | (#47396179)

Creativity is not related to intelligence.

But you probably do need above average creativity to make a living from it, so that still leaves half the planet without career options.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (1)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 4 months ago | (#47396209)

Who says that the free stuff "utopia" is not the terrible future.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (1, Troll)

roman_mir (125474) | about 4 months ago | (#47396249)

...the other red herring argument was age discrimination... [slashdot.org]

The reality is that USA (and many others, like the Canadian or European) workers are much more expensive than workers from countries that do not have the insane socialist labour laws that raise the cost of doing business just enough for companies not to hire in those places any longer. This is not about an hourly wage, even if the hourly wage was exactly the same in USA and in India it still would not make sense to hire Americans. This is about the insane labour laws, the insane government agenda of running welfare / socialist / fascist states, where the individual is subservient to the government. It is too expensive to deal with big government where you cannot even pay a simple cash bribe for the government to go away and not come back.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (1)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | about 4 months ago | (#47396465)

Yeah, if you try to explain to the average person how close we are to mass unemployment with just one breakthrough in AI they generally shrug or say "yeah, but a computer can't do my job."

If our economy doesn't want to change, then I'm just going to be sure to make it "onto the ark". The global economy is not going to correct itself IMO. It would require such a large commitment to fundamental change from everybody that I expect the current trend to continue. If people don't want the system that oppresses them to change--I don't see a reason to be on the side of the oppressed.

Re:The goal of 1st world countries (2)

aralin (107264) | about 4 months ago | (#47396517)

I'm sorry to say, but if I am to automate some jobs, I will probably start with the creative ones. In most creative works, those can be distilled to sequences of elements from a fairly small set (notes, words), there are reasonable constraints to limit the possible space, those rules can be deduced by a neural networks, the results can be easily tested.

If you want to keep your job, pick one with fairly simple procedure but large space of ever changing exceptions with few discernible patterns.

Are you really? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395925)

"It's getting pretty frustrating when you can't compete on salary for a skilled job,"

What? I could quit my job by burning bridges in such a manner that the flames would be seen and felt in the Heavens themselves, then immediately argue a 50-75% increase in pay.

"You hear references all the time that these big companies ... can't find skilled workers. I am a skilled worker."

Are you? Are you really? Because for the past decade, it's been nigh on impossible to retain programmers who want exponentially more money. Because they'll get it.

Why for all love would you be looking at Manpower, "for example"? Where in the name of the Dark Gods your professional network? Jesus. I'm a charisma-incompetent, socially-inept recluse, and I but need to whistle to land interviews.

Re:Are you really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395995)

You work for the NSA ,right?

I've seen this in too many companies... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395931)

Not all H-1Bs are bad. I have seen talent from Europe and the UK brought in because they are just fscking phenomenal. Their specialization was extremely important. However, these days, H-1B workers are just hauled in because they are cheap, easy to kick around, and disappear when done, such as a company that changes the developers out every 89 days.

One place I worked at hired a lot of H-1Bs, and the reason for it is that "Americans sabotage and sue, foreign workers can be trusted far more. Ever see a H-1B tie us up in courts?" Every place I have seen that has H-1Bs has bragged about their quality above native talent. Cognitive dissonance? Same companies that brag about that have at best a mediocre end product.

The ironic thing is that this cheapness causes damage in ways that the management drones don't even think about. I've worked with H-1Bs who were copying entire source code trees onto removable media. As soon as they went home, all that code would be theirs to do whatsoever they wanted. The CAD files and formula timings? All theirs to use, free of charge once they got home. As soon as they left US soil, NDAs didn't apply to them.

pay em what they're worth (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395949)

I've got no problem with immigrants that are "taking american jobs" if they are more skilled. I do however, have a problem if they are being paid substantially less than me. If they are that good they should be paid at least as much if not more than their american counter parts.

That would solve the "shortage" really quick.

Re:pay em what they're worth (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396447)

Generally they are getting paid the same, yes there are a few firms that abuse the process. Where I work here they get paid the exact same rate as the rest of us, in fact they cost the company considerably more as they also have to pay the visa costs, transport costs and they provide a 6 week accommodation costs while they find themselves more permanent accommodation. Most companies don't abuse this process.

some considerations. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395967)

I'm from EU.
Several times I worked with pakistan/indian development teams and I found them unsatisfactory.
Most of times I had to skill them not only in basic programming but in base mathematical notions as well.
All of them were hired by US and EU bosses as "computer geniuses" only because what they talked could hardly be understood.

Customer care and tech support now are outsourced in India or other countries as well, but the level of incompetency they offer is almost unbelievable.

 

Have you actually tried hiring these days? (2)

psperl (1704658) | about 4 months ago | (#47395985)

As far as I'm concerned there's a shortage. I've been trying to hire developers for multiple high-compensation positions in NYC. Truly smart/capable/motivated people are not looking for jobs. They are already employed.

Don't get me wrong, there are many people looking who think they're qualified. I just don't agree. I'm not even looking for particular skills or experience. Just people who are genuinely into technology.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396011)

> They are already employed.

And even if they aren't, by the time you get them in for an interview, they've already got another job. Here on the Eastside of Seattle, it's nearly impossible to find developers. We're offering 10% more than Microsoft or Expedia, which are in neighboring buildings, but we still can't find developers. We had nineteen open positions as of a year ago, and only three are filled. Those were by friends of existing employees. There just aren't any good out of work developers.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (1)

psperl (1704658) | about 4 months ago | (#47396069)

Exactly. The only positions I've filled recently were by internal referral.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396243)

You and everyone else saying they can't find people, post your actual jobs offers and we'll tell you why we don't want to work for you or how you could improve the ad to find us.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396345)

Amen to this.

In a slightly more entrepreneurial vein, anyone want to put together a consultancy to teach corporations how to recruit devs? I bet there's significant amounts of money there.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396329)

"10% more than Microsoft" likely isn't particularly competitive. Their headhunters regularly call me. I've yet to be impressed - most of their offers would be a significant pay cut. Most of you would probably call me a backend engineer (from kernel drivers up through large-scale modeling & simulation software).

  I'm 31, currently on the east coast -- but not in the NYC inflated salary/cost-of-living area. For me, personally, my magic number is around $150k, with reasonable benefits, and not working burnout 80hr weeks. Anything less than that automatically hits the trash bin. Anything above that gets rated by how interesting the work is, and not particularly by the specific salary amount.

My guess is that you're either probably failing hard at marketing your job as being interesting, looking for people who are way more competent than necessary to execute that specific job, or severely out of touch on salary. Failing that, your location is probably not superb and you fail the "can I live where I want to live and commute to your location in less than X minutes" test. That's a bit harder to fix, I've seen several corporations either fail or get bought out because they didn't realize quite how much their office location mattered and could never find talent that wanted to live in that area.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (1)

wisnoskij (1206448) | about 4 months ago | (#47396013)

Well pushing tech, tech, tech to everybody and their grandmother does create a glut of workers, but it does not necessarily get you any more truly competent workers (or get you any more people interested in anything other than the salary). In fact the glut of incompetence might actually ruin a few ones with potential.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396035)

Try hiring folks in the bay area to telecommute.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396045)

I'd take it if it wasn't in NYC.

I'm employed. I think I'm talented. Might not be, but I do get alot of calls from people I used to work with wondering if I'd come over to work with them. In fact, my current employer just made the mistake of giving me a technology to own that I *hate* and it outside my chosen field of specialty (information security, for some reason the CISO owns making apps deploy on personal devices). I've been spending 30% of my time not working on making the organization more business friendly secured, but rather trying to deploy apps.

I got a call from someone over the weekend doing what the other 70% of my job is and not having to end each day in frustration with one of the 4 companies involved in trying to deploy these apps. I'm super considering it. Same pay, better work.

Point of the story: If you pile crap on a talented and motivated employee, they will go elsewhere.

So post the info here. (2)

khasim (1285) | about 4 months ago | (#47396077)

I've been trying to hire developers for multiple high-compensation positions in NYC.

So post it here.

Truly smart/capable/motivated people are not looking for jobs. They are already employed.

Yes. Usually. So you have to offer them something MORE than they have at their current job to make them willing to take a risk on a new job.

I'm not even looking for particular skills or experience. Just people who are genuinely into technology.

Yeah. You might want to re-evaluate your criteria.

At least narrow it down to whether you're looking for a programmer or a CCIE. Is this about writing drivers? Or programming EPROM chips? Or iPhone games? Or encryption? SatNav?

Re:So post the info here. (2)

psperl (1704658) | about 4 months ago | (#47396275)

I think you've missed the point. There is no glut of competent workers. There is no conspiracy by large tech firms to drive down wages by hiring incompetent foreigners or off-shoring. The "foreigners" or H1-B's that I've got employed are the elite of their respective countries, and are paid based on their skill. You could call it a tragedy that they are working for me and not helping their home country compete in the international market.

Not all businesses allow you to post jobs to Slashdot, although I suppose I could lobby to change that internally. I'm also fully aware I need to entice people away, but if they aren't looking I can't entice them. I'm a happy employee myself, I'm not periodically checking to see if anyone has any enticing offers for me.

You're statement about narrowing my search is also part of the problem with this industry. A good engineer can work on almost anything. Hiring by keyword does not make success.

Re:So post the info here. (1)

GoodNewsJimDotCom (2244874) | about 4 months ago | (#47396417)

If you have jobs, we're all ears. A lot of us are unemployed yet highly capable software engineers. Do you have an email to send my resume?

Re:So post the info here. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396477)

I think you will find it is more a case of "a lot of you are unemployed yet THINK you are highly capable software engineers". There are plenty of jobs out there in the field, if you are struggling to find a job chances are pretty high the problem is you. The amount of people I interview that I would not hire as a junior programmer yet claim 10 years+ experience as a senior developer is staggering, I am not sure how they managed to get such inflated opinions of there skills, but it is a serious issue.

Re:So post the info here. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396513)

If a position can remain unfilled in search of a qualified applicant indefinitely, there is no position. The organization does not actually need that labor input. If the organization will not continue to evolve without additional labor input, the organization will pay market rate or fail. This lamenting is masturbatory self-importance of someone who does not need additional staff, evidenced by the fact that they haven't hired them. They might like to pay less for more talented staff if they could find them, but they're not going to.

Re:So post the info here. (1)

khasim (1285) | about 4 months ago | (#47396555)

I think you've missed the point.

I think I nailed the point. YOU claim that YOU cannot find people to hire for a position that YOU cannot identify or even characterize. Is it programming? Is it networking?

There is no glut of competent workers.

Any yet YOU cannot characterize the position that YOU claim YOU have open except:

I'm not even looking for particular skills or experience. Just people who are genuinely into technology.

So you will train people who are not currently qualified ... but there isn't anyone who is qualified.

Not all businesses allow you to post jobs to Slashdot, although I suppose I could lobby to change that internally.

If you're running the ad on Dice or someplace then post a LINK to that posting.

You are quick to claim that you cannot find qualified people (even though you'd train someone who was not qualified) but rather reticent to post any information about the opening you claim to have.

That's suspicious.

You're statement about narrowing my search is also part of the problem with this industry. A good engineer can work on almost anything.

No. A good automotive engineer CANNOT design a bridge as well as a good civil engineer. And neither of those are electrical engineers.

And someone looking for a programmer would NOT have any problem stating that AND what language(s).

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396145)

At first I hated you but then I read your last line and I agree 100%. I'm a "Truly smart/capable/motivated" person but I'm unemployed. _NOBODY_ will hire someone who is unemployed so I'm stuck. And US corporations are missing out on my high IQ and much higher than average tenacity and attention to detail and quality.

I'm a true geek- most of my interests are science and tech. I have a BSEE and most of the other students didn't really care. I was one of maybe 5 who do.

But that said I have a great problem with how HR and hiring is done. They make a huge list of experience requirements. News flash- we geeks figure stuff out fast! I just taught myself Visual Basic (quickly). All I need is a goal and I figure things out (well).

I'm in the Philly area...

What technologies are you hiring for?

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396269)

Of the last 5 programmers we hired/given offers to, at least 3 were unemployed at the time. 1 turned us down/demanded more than we were willing to pay by 2%, 1 quit within 1 month and took him over 6 months to find another job. The last is still here, but is basically threatening to quit every time he has to do anything he doesn't like.

Not claiming anything about you, but I'm sure others have run into the same pattern. Of course more likely is it just sucks to work where I am.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396507)

But that said I have a great problem with how HR and hiring is done. They make a huge list of experience requirements. News flash- we geeks figure stuff out fast! I just taught myself Visual Basic (quickly). All I need is a goal and I figure things out (well).

In my experience, ordinary people (non-geeks) are totally incapable of learning. They can be trained to do specific tasks but will never figure things out on their own. HR and hiring managers only know how to hire ordinary people and cannot comprehend anyone else. You will fail every interview if you say you can "figure stuff out fast" because the interviewers will assume you are lying.

Re:Have you actually tried hiring these days? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396355)

Why would a skilled technologist want to work for any company that wasn't a collective of friends with similar aims? They can probably implement whatever shitty web service you're trying to provide, by themselves, in a week's work, and not have to support a horde of leeching MBAs and slave traders that probably wasted their time and treated them like subhuman shit some time in the last 3-5 years when they applied for a position which was advertised but not actually funded at the time, or advertised but only to justify a H-1b hire?

For my part, I have felt pretty much open disdain from most quarters in the labor market since "the recession". If it came right down to it I think I'd rather retain my dignity and be homeless than subject myself to that again.

Fortunately, I've had several of my own projects turn out to be quite successful over the last few years since I left the open labor market and make well more than I could working as a technonegro on any of the big plantations.

No matter what degrees and skill sets you have (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47395999)

... the world doesn't owe you a living. Even if you have all the right stuff now, and supplement that with at-home study sessions to keep your skill set reasonably up to date (e.g., with the server-side latest libraries for JS) it won't necessarily be enough to get a job you'll be proud of ten years from now.

The woman who chatted online with Obama about her out-of-work husband who was a semiconductor engineer, doesn't get it. People need to actively manage their own careers, through twists and turns in the global economy, labor market, and business and technological trends; unlike the so-called "greatest generation" that reached adulthood in the decade after WW II, it's not enough to get a degree or two, get hired by a reputable company, and be a good company player for the next 30 or 40 years. That period was probably an aberration.

I don't necessarily agree with FB, Google, and Microsoft on their recommendations for H1-B policies, but Americans working in the tech. field should have a personal job strategy that does not depend on either the continuance, expansion, or shrinking of that program. It should be irrelevant to where they're headed.

Re:No matter what degrees and skill sets you have (1)

Duhavid (677874) | about 4 months ago | (#47396421)

Yes, you should have a career strategy. And it should be a good one.
But seriously, we need to

A, do our jobs
B, keep our skills up to date
C, manage this career, guessing properly about where things are going next and figuring out how to chase it without letting down the side on A and B.

And woe betide you if you dare add recreation and / or family to this.

And *everyone* needs to do this. I think most are going to do an average job on this.

And how do you know? The guys that get to choose what the twists and turns are going to be, they don't communicate reliably.

When they say 'skilled' they mean 'cheap' (4, Insightful)

lusid1 (759898) | about 4 months ago | (#47396021)

Word substitution is a common ESL problem.

/. article about a /. article (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396065)

I don't see why this was recycled by the submitter and editor; it was adequately covered a month ago. Attempts by these "advocacy groups" to unionize tech workers just aren't being met with any interest.

you FAIL 1t!? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396225)

There's a Ferrari shortage too... (3, Insightful)

MetricT (128876) | about 4 months ago | (#47396341)

I can't buy a Ferrari for $100, by the same logic, that means there *must* be a Ferrari shortage! Something must be done!!!

Hint: reward good people, and you won't have problems finding good people. The problem is these miserly capitalist/MBA types who feel tech types are getting all "uppity" for wanting a decent salary for their 4 year STEM degree and often 2-6 years of grad school to boot, because doing that takes away from their quarterly bonus.

Temporary Foreign Workers (2)

MacroSlopp (1662147) | about 4 months ago | (#47396359)

I live in Canada, and we're going through something similar with a 'temporary foreign workers program'. Workers are brought in from other countries because people aren't willing to work for the salaries that the employers deem affordable... that's not how a free market works... is it?
The Canadian government has been put on the spot to the point, that they actually have to act on behalf of Canadian WORKERS, rather than employers.

Keeping fighting to keep this issue current and in the news. It's terrible for the workers, it's terrible for your country, and in the long run it's terrible for the employers.

At the risk of sounding like a HR/CEO cliche, the most valuable asset for a tech company is its people. Also, quantity does not equal quality.
Cliches are sometimes based in truth.

It's all about the $$$ (1)

nehumanuscrede (624750) | about 4 months ago | (#47396473)

After reading the " How often should I change jobs " thread yesterday and noted most do so to keep asking for ever increasing pay, it isn't shocking to realize the big companies have turned to outside skills at a fraction of the cost of an American worker.

Why would they hire you at $100k + / year when they can pick someone up on a work visa, with the same skills, for half of that ? Especially for short term projects ? If they have the skills, how do you compete against someone willing to do the work at a fraction of the pay ?

Companies are under pressure to keep cutting costs and they have cut so much the only thing they have left is the labor pool.

It won't be long before American skills are just too expensive to consider for those companies who have the option to utilize outside labor. If you think unemployment is bad now, wait till they quit hiring locally because you won't / can't work for what your replacement is more than happy to get.

Not sure how to fix it either. Cost of living here is a lot higher than it is in ( insert your favorite country here ) so, as long as they have the skills, they will get the jobs instead of the guy who has had six jobs in the past three years and is demanding insane compensation and will likely jump ship in six months anyway.

IBM research model: foreign temps (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 4 months ago | (#47396571)

From what I hear, IBM's research model for physics is this: very few tenured/permanent researchers, and a whole lot of foreign postdocs and temp workers. Why don't they hire american physicists? Because americans require a higher wage. Not because they're better, but because foreigners are trapped by the rules of the program, and even if not, would otherwise work for less anyway (coming from 3rd world, or otherwise non-american economic levels). In my experience in physics grad school, foreigners and americans are pretty much on par in skill, but there are more americans [http://www.aip.org/statistics/data-graphics/astronomy-phds-awarded-citizenship-classes-1983-through-2012] at these levels. There are a lot of very good people both foreign and local, so, given roughly equal abilities and many more americans, you'd think IBM would be hiring more americans, but no.

Anyone who thinks IBM/Google/Apple are being honest and forthright has a severe case of amnesia and should review the recent antitrust/collusion to keep wages low. http://pando.com/2014/03/25/newly-unsealed-documents-show-steve-jobs-brutally-callous-response-after-getting-a-google-employee-fired/ :)

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