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Ubuntu's Mir Gets Delayed Again

samzenpus posted about 5 months ago | from the just-a-little-longer dept.

Ubuntu 241

jones_supa writes "Delays keep piling up for the Mir display server on the Ubuntu desktop. After already being postponed multiple times, Mir might not be enabled by default on the Ubuntu Linux desktop until the 16.04 LTS release — in two years time! This was the estimate by Mark Shuttleworth in a virtual Ubuntu Developer Summit. Using Mir, Mark says, will lead to supporting more hardware, obtaining better performance, and 'do some great things' with the technology. He expects some users will start using Mir on the desktop over the next year. Mir is already packaged as an experimental option, along with an experimental Unity 8 desktop session."

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This could be good news... (4, Insightful)

bazmonkey (555276) | about 5 months ago | (#46480029)

If Wayland is able to make decent ground before Mir is ready, there's still hope Ubuntu will drop the whole thing.

Re:This could be good news... (3, Insightful)

dbIII (701233) | about 5 months ago | (#46480081)

Why?
I think we need both to compete. Some of the early limitations proposed in Wayland were frankly, utter shit, and it was only pressure to lift their game that led to them being dropped.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

Microlith (54737) | about 5 months ago | (#46480233)

I think we need both to compete.

Why? Given they both solve the same problem, but one has wide support and has shipped on devices, what use is the other?

Some of the early limitations proposed in Wayland were frankly, utter shit, and it was only pressure to lift their game that led to them being dropped.

Mir did not appear until way, way late in Wayland's game, and it appeared with a lot of terribly uninformed commentary from Canonical regarding how Wayland worked.

Re:This could be good news... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481371)

Why? Given they both solve the same problem, but one has wide support and has shipped on devices, what use is the other?

If this is true then why even have Wayland? It solves pretty much the same problems that X had already solved. We could have simply modified X.

If Wayland is justified then so is Mir.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 5 months ago | (#46481493)

Why? Given they both solve the same problem, but one has wide support and has shipped on devices, what use is the other?

If this is true then why even have Wayland? It solves pretty much the same problems that X had already solved. We could have simply modified X.

If Wayland is justified then so is Mir.

Hell, if that's the approach you want to take, why even have a computer? It solves pretty much the same problems that pencil and paper had already solved. Why have pencil and paper? It pretty much solves the same problems cuniform tablets had already solved.

I assume you really can see the difference between a new display server and antiquated X, but maybe not. I'll chalk it up to the state of the school system in today's world. Oh, wait, why even bother having a school system? It solves pretty much the same problems that the guild system did.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480241)

Oh, "we" need both now, do we? What have you done with dbIII? Nothing more than X has ever or will ever be needed, according to the real dbIII.

> Some of the early limitations proposed in Wayland were frankly, utter shit

And what limitations were those, impostor-dbIII?

Re:This could be good news... (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 5 months ago | (#46480717)

For one thing the initial linux only limitation. If you can't find any more that have been dealt with then you haven't been followign this topic.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480881)

Linux-only limitation was *never* proposed for Wayland, and Mir has done nothing to change that anyway.

Wayland is a display server protocol, remember?

Upstream *Weston* developers are primarily concerned with Linux support, because that is what they choose and/or get paid to do. There is nothing preventing someone from porting it or implementing their own Wayland compositor for their favourite operating system. There never has been. Wayland has always been released under the liberal MIT license, and the Weston compositor has switched to MIT as well.

> If you can't find any more that have been dealt with then you haven't been followign this topic.

That's pretty rich, coming from you. You are the nitwit who keeps posting FUD, remember? No, please enlighten us all about the rest of these limitations are. Limitations which you have not completely dreamed up from nothing, would be nice.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

DrXym (126579) | about 5 months ago | (#46481117)

And Mir is for Linux too. What's your point? The Linux kernel just happens to provide the event and display hooks that these display server layers need to work efficiently. I'm quite certain that this would not stop Wayland being ported to other kernels or environments should there be reason to. Or just use X. Big deal.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

SkunkPussy (85271) | about 5 months ago | (#46481355)

Network transparency was conspicuous by its absence for a long time.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480345)

I think we need both to compete.

I'm not so sure. No company acquires money directly from open source code. So it would be everyone's benefit in the OSS ecosystem (be it service sellers, HW makers or just hackers) to have one solid component than two broken ones. Because then we could concentrate resources on one display server and make it stronger. Especially when Mir and Wayland both do the same thing anyway.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 5 months ago | (#46480735)

Considering that to a great extent it is ego driven (not a bad thing in this case), there does need to be something else to raise the bar.
Consider the breakup of the Internet Explorer team when it was considered to be "good enough" as an example. By current standards IE way back then was of extremely low quality but there was not seen to be any viable competition.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Bengie (1121981) | about 5 months ago | (#46481345)

Mir is being designed by people who don't fully understand the problem domain or now Wayland works. The lead "devs" of Mir have spouted a lot of factually wrong information based on misunderstandings. I don't know about you, but I don't think it's a good idea to have programmers who don't understand what they're trying to accomplish.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about 5 months ago | (#46481513)

Why?
I think we need both to compete. Some of the early limitations proposed in Wayland were frankly, utter shit, and it was only pressure to lift their game that led to them being dropped.

People seem happy that the upstart/systemd decision has been made. I imagine they will be happy when the Wayland/Mir decision is, too. We don't need both to compete, we already have X for that.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480103)

Why would that be a good thing?

Re:This could be good news... (1, Funny)

phantomfive (622387) | about 5 months ago | (#46480125)

Then there are those of us who are hoping that Wayland will get dropped as well.......

Re:This could be good news... (1, Flamebait)

Alomex (148003) | about 5 months ago | (#46480371)

And you would be wrong. No commercial implementation of Unix uses X (NextStep, OSX, Android) and even Sun back in the day tried its own alternative (SunNews). Every single person who has gone deep into the bowels of the X beast says it sucks, including the X.org people.

But a few X fanbois think they know better 'cuz hmm erh.... network transparency!

Re:This could be good news... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480473)

RHEL is conspicuously missing from your list. Keep trolling Wayland fanbois.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

phantomfive (622387) | about 5 months ago | (#46480479)

No commercial implementation of Unix uses X (NextStep, OSX, Android) and even Sun back in the day tried its own alternative (SunNews).

Commercial implementations of Unix suck as a rule, HPUX, AUX, AIX..........so you saying, "X isn't as good because some company chose Y" isn't a valid argument.

Give me BSD or Linux over any of those.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480741)

Apparently, Apple succeded with the Mac OS X. At least, that is what I am told as I have not tried it for myself. Sales do back that statement.

Re:This could be good news... (4, Interesting)

Alomex (148003) | about 5 months ago | (#46480763)

Commercial implementations of Unix suck as a rule,

Wrong. OSX doesn't suck, Solaris didn't suck in its time, Android doesn't suck and even your much beloved Linux didn't get to be a real serious operating system until IBM decided to adopt it and spent massive amounts of money bringing it up to enterprise quality.

Re:This could be good news... (1, Troll)

Lumpy (12016) | about 5 months ago | (#46481113)

In it's time? Solaris is still available and WIDELY USED in industrial and scientific worlds.

Where are you getting your Unix information because it seems to be pretty messed up.

wrong (1)

Spiked_Three (626260) | about 5 months ago | (#46481255)

Yeah, really, why limit it to commercial version of Unix that suck. I haven't seen any that doesn't suck.

And on topic, so this new server is buggier than the current xerver? How can that be, the current version has to be one of the buggiest pieces of distributed code I have ever seen.

People moved in hordes to RDP as a protocol because X sucks so bad on a LAN. But the desktop will not run on RDP, unless you switch to XFCE. Is it just me, or does XFCE look like something from the 50s?

With all the talk about open source responsiveness to fixing issues, this is state of the art.

Re:wrong (1)

SkunkPussy (85271) | about 5 months ago | (#46481381)

> People moved in hordes to RDP as a protocol because X sucks so bad on a LAN

That doesn't add up - VNC has been around since forever so people would have moved to that for the same reasons that they might move to RDP. (RDP is a bit better than VNC but that's not really relevant).

My experience of X on a lan is quite good - I use remote gvim all the time. X over the internet isn't so good. I have occasionally ran remote gvim sessions over the internet in the past but forgoing a GUI and running vim over SSH is preferable in that case.

Re:wrong (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 5 months ago | (#46481525)

"Yeah, really, why limit it to commercial version of Unix that suck. I haven't seen any that doesn't suck."

You haven't seen many then. Almost all the commercial unix's still around (AIX, HP-UX, Solaris) IMO are better for heavy iron back end use when compared to Linux. No one gives a shit if they don't support the latest flavour-of-the-month graphics doodles on the desktop , thats not what they're designed for. If you want fancy graphics by a Mac, but don't expect to run a bank on it.

"because X sucks so bad on a LAN"

Whatever. This tedious argument is so old and disproved I'm amazed anyone still dishes it up in a serious debate.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

epyT-R (613989) | about 5 months ago | (#46480499)

Why should we emulate any of those just because they're commercialized?

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Alomex (148003) | about 5 months ago | (#46480531)

... and X.org is commercialized how?

The one thing they have in common is that they all looked deep into the bowels of the beast and they all rejected. The commercialization thing is a red herring and you know it.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about 5 months ago | (#46480729)

But a few X fanbois think they know better 'cuz hmm erh.... network transparency!

One way or the other, networked Wayland will get figured out - I don't need X primitives across the wire, I just need to run an app. This can be figured achieved.

I'm more concerned that security is an afterthought in Wayland, and it'll get bolted on at some point. X's security is enough to make an auditor's skin crawl and Wayland isn't (yet) any better.

Maybe Wayland will forever be a development idea and somebody will fork it to address practical concerns. It might not even be too early for a fork - for as long as large numbers of people have been expressing concerns about both issues, we (meaning I, casually) haven't heard any recognition from the project that those are important issues and design work is taking those needs into consideration.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

dbIII (701233) | about 5 months ago | (#46480759)

network transparency

Which is of course why X gets used where it is used in the first place. Wrap your head around X being used on MS Windows guys - once you work out why it is used there you'll stop laughing at network transparency and see why people are using it.

Re:This could be good news... (5, Insightful)

Alomex (148003) | about 5 months ago | (#46480777)

Except that most people don't use X network transparency. You can achieve the same effect without it, and this is what most people do, but they don't even know it. They see a remote client and immediately think "it must be network transparency!" If that were the case then surely windows is network transparent since it supports remote desktop.

As I said, network transparency is the mating call of the X noob.

Yes, it is a flamebait-ish statement, but it also happens to be the truth.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480817)

Except that most people don't use X network transparency.

Most people don't use anything they can't get with an iPad.

Try harder (0)

dbIII (701233) | about 5 months ago | (#46480941)

You are really calling the people who have been using X for years "noobs"? How interesting and childish. You've also shown you did not understand my bit on X windows on MS Windows yet replied with an opinion anyway. Since wikipedia exist you have no excuse for such a thing.

Re:Try harder (2)

Alomex (148003) | about 5 months ago | (#46481097)

Absolutely. I've been using a car for twenty years that doesn't make me an expert mechanic. It's funny that simply because you open a windows manager or write a few function calls for X you consider yourself an expert. on it.

The people who do know the X innards inside and out, namely X.org, says it sucks and are writing Wayland.i

Re:Try harder (4, Insightful)

thegarbz (1787294) | about 5 months ago | (#46481275)

You are really calling the people who have been using X for years "noobs"?

Using X does not mean understanding X. Additionally using X does not mean understanding how things have changed under the hood when there's been no visible change in the usability of the system.

Frankly a lot of X veterans who maybe once used X in a truly network transparent way think that just because their ability to send a window to another X system means it's still network transparent, which is utter rubbish. There's no modern distro which actually implements remote X in any other way than Wayland is proposing to do it, pixels scraping and sending it over the network.

Yet for some reason some people are still hung up on a feature which they think they use because frankly they don't understand anything, and the most vocal bunch seems to be the ones with the longest beards.

Re:Try harder (1)

SkunkPussy (85271) | about 5 months ago | (#46481387)

Presumably if you're arguing on slashdot its because you've got quite a long beard yourself.

Who modded this crap up? (1)

Viol8 (599362) | about 5 months ago | (#46481483)

"There's no modern distro which actually implements remote X in any other way than Wayland is proposing to do it, pixels scraping and sending it over the network."

Utter utter utter crap. If you open a standard X app - eg xterm - on a remote server it will use the standard X protocol, it will NOT do remote desktop style pixel scraping. If you don't believe me check it out with tcpdump.

"Yet for some reason some people are still hung up on a feature which they think they use because frankly they don't understand anything"

As you're proving - its the ones who make the biggest noises who usually understand the least.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481537)

There are a whole set of new users who would probably never need the network transparency and would benefit more from having Wayland. OS X doesn't use X windows natively, yet X is still there when I need it. I don't see Wayland from being any different in this respect. Having said that the only thing I can remotely window with X are the current Unix programs and I can only RDP OS X programs. I see the same thing happening with Wayland. Eventually nothing will support X without at least a recompile or worse not at all.

Supposedly RDP has a seamless windows mode that allows me to only remote a single application to my remote desktop. I haven't used RDP for this because as far as I know rdesktop doesn't support this mode and the add-on that adds this functionality does not work with Windows 7 or 8 and as far as I can tell only Windows programs support this mode anyway. While X supports seamless mode transparently. I can have X programs from multiple servers on the same desktop without any compatibility issues.

As I said, network transparency is the mating call of the X noob.

I think you have that backwards. Some of us have been using X since before a lot of the Wayland proponents were born. They never saw the need for network transparency and see it as a poor excuse for keeping X around. It's the old timers who don't like change.

Re:This could be good news... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480845)

network transparency

Which is of course why X gets used where it is used in the first place. Wrap your head around X being used on MS Windows guys - once you work out why it is used there you'll stop laughing at network transparency and see why people are using it.

X is only network transparent if all your apps are from 1995 and are written against Motif. Everything newer than that is not network transparent, it's just shoving uncompressed bitmaps across the network in a highly inefficient wrapper protocol that makes large numbers of inefficient, lag inducing round-trips.

A rootless VNC-esque protocol (Xpra) is a superior solution in every way.

Re:This could be good news... (-1, Troll)

dbIII (701233) | about 5 months ago | (#46480925)

Please discuss a topic you know something about instead of that "apps from 1995" nonsense.

Re:This could be good news... (4, Informative)

thegarbz (1787294) | about 5 months ago | (#46481277)

If you think that he's wrong maybe you should look at how any modern X system works. Both X developers and Wayland developers have discussed in detail that there is nothing network transparent about any modern release of X which does any kind of direct rendering or hardware acceleration, something that was introduced around the mid 90s, so the parent's comment is actually right on the mark.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

Bengie (1121981) | about 5 months ago | (#46481377)

X developers and Wayland developers

/agree

Synonymous terms. X devs are the ones making Wayland. I find it funny and kind of sad that so many people think X is somehow better when it's made by the same people. If those people don't like Wayland, they are free to fork X and maintain it themselves. From what I hear, it is an absolute mess because if has so many conflicting features.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

udippel (562132) | about 5 months ago | (#46481001)

X is only network transparent if all your apps are from 1995 and are written against Motif. Everything newer than that is not network transparent, it's just shoving uncompressed bitmaps across the network in a highly inefficient wrapper protocol that makes large numbers of inefficient, lag inducing round-trips.

Ooops, this is good for an AC, but bad for the mod who modded up an AC with some unsound feelings.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Uecker (1842596) | about 5 months ago | (#46481029)

The shoving uncompressed bitmaps is not really the problem. The round trips come from stupid things like creating a lot of atoms in a synchronous way using xlib. This is not a problem with the X protocol and can be avoided using XCB. There was some momentum to get this fixed, before Linux development was re-focussed for the mobile market (just look who funds what and why). Don't be fooled this is not about your desktop. This is especially not about the traditional UNIX desktop which will simply be discarded along the way because it is not of significant commercial interest to anyone. From my perspective, Wayland and MIR are a both disaster, because I fear that it will set us back a decade by breaking compatibility with diffiicult to re-create special applications coded against POSIX and X.

The best outcome now would be a split of the Linux community with one part concentrating on a X11/UNIX desktop and API stability. All other players are then free to continue to create incompatible systems to fulfill their mobile ambitions without hurting the ones which would like to have a stabile UNIX-like system.

PS: xpra is nice, that it breaks the on-the-wire protocol is a big mistake.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480953)

So, uh, AIX, HPUX, Solaris etc aren't commercial implementations of Unix now? X has been the standard UI of commercial Unix for decades now, which is why Sun swapped from NeWS to it. Nextstep and its successor MacOS X were outliers, and Android is an embedded OS where the rules have always been different.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481099)

Herp Derp much?

Re:This could be good news... (1)

marcello_dl (667940) | about 5 months ago | (#46480649)

More precisely, I wish the transition will not fragment the system between a lot of still potentially useful apps that cease working and the new stuff that will take years to mature to the point of old apps. Think about the transition between kde 3 and 4, or end up like people running classic unix apps under OSX.

Network transparency is a MUST to me, but if it is important for many it should end up getting implemented into any solution eventually.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480841)

The Wayland developers have already said that Wayland over the network will be something like VNC - i.e. the network transparancy of Windows 95.

I've used Windows 95 remotely via VNC back in the days, and it sucked. Sending bitmaps, rather than "draw rectangle here" is simply too slow. And Wayland is all about bitmaps (aka. textures).

And yes, sending bitmaps is still too slow. I have a solitaire game I wrote using SDL, that I keep planning to rewrite using XLib, because SDL also does the bitmap thing. Rewriting it using XLib may make it slower to start up (all 52 card images need to be sent to the server once), but after that, it will be "draw ace of spades here", rather than "draw black pixel here", making it perform a lot better remotely.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481039)

Because we all know network transparency is indispensable for a solitaire game...

Re:This could be good news... (2)

Electricity Likes Me (1098643) | about 5 months ago | (#46481107)

Conversely Microsoft's RDP implementation is pretty much a top of its game remote desktop system.

Look the reality here is VNC sucked because we don't have fast compression libraries to use with it. That's changed - a lot. We're in an age where mobile devices have H.264 ASICs, and TigerVNC/TurboVNC exist.

What we're desperately lacking is a desktop UI which lets us seamlessly bring those components together - I want to be able to teleport my app windows across to other desktops and bring them back locally, or send them to other machines. X can't do that - not remotely efficiently.

Re:This could be good news... (3, Informative)

Bengie (1121981) | about 5 months ago | (#46481403)

Wayland is a simple abstract layer. You can make your own remote protocol and have receive your draw commands and render it locally. One can fully implement X in Wayland, but one cannot implement Wayland in X. Therefore, Wayland is better. If you need X like functionality, someone could easily create a wrapper, which they already have for X.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

DrXym (126579) | about 5 months ago | (#46481125)

It's hard to see why anybody with an interest in Linux would hope it be dropped.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

squiggleslash (241428) | about 5 months ago | (#46481443)

It's hard to see why anyone with an interest in Linux would want us to move away from X11 to an unstable untried display system that will be missing features by design, simply because some X11 developers feel that the core X.org server has a lot of cruft in it.

Wayland will look elegant to those programmers until the day they start adding the missing features. It'll be far more crufty and inefficient than X.org long before it ends up being feature complete. That's how programming works.

tablet and phone (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480185)

It's already default on the tablet and phone, which is what Shuttleworth is excited about these days. So in that sense, it is already here.

So wayland is going to have to do a lot more than make decent ground if Ubuntu is to drop Mir. Wayland will need to do everything that Mir and X11 can do, and exceed them, and also be on a mature and well tested code base. Merely being an adequate competitor won't cut it.

Re:This could be good news... (4, Insightful)

angryfeet (2876521) | about 5 months ago | (#46480209)

But remember Wayland was floundering until just after Mir was announced. Only once all the righteous indignation kicked in did it start going anywhere. Without Shuttleworth we'd all be stuck in the 70's.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Chrisq (894406) | about 5 months ago | (#46480745)

But remember Wayland was floundering until just after Mir was announced. Only once all the righteous indignation kicked in did it start going anywhere. Without Shuttleworth we'd all be stuck in the 70's.

I was going to say the same thing. without competition Wayland would have moved very slowly, if at all.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480245)

Make Mir a cull?

Re:This could be good news... (4, Insightful)

davydagger (2566757) | about 5 months ago | (#46480425)

ubuntu didn't adopt wayland because they said it lacked too much functionality, so instead of contributing back, like most other companies do, they decided to do what they normally, do, make an incompatible, inhouse version only they use, and then blame everyone else for not marching around them.

I liked ubuntu early on, because when it was X11 and Gnome 2, they made using linux easy, with using the exact same technologies everyone else running a linux desktop was using. They were using the most mainstream widely supported technologies.

And thats all I want out of a newbie distro. To take wideley supported, most default software, package it together, with support, make the best sane configs. Find the best GUI config tools, and make a coherent OS family like windows and mac do, for everyone who is non-technical, so they can enjoy what we do, and I have something to recommend to non-techies.

It would also make my life easier, being I'm the one who generally fixes the computer.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

RDW (41497) | about 5 months ago | (#46481155)

And thats all I want out of a newbie distro. To take wideley supported, most default software, package it together, with support, make the best sane configs. Find the best GUI config tools, and make a coherent OS family like windows and mac do, for everyone who is non-technical, so they can enjoy what we do, and I have something to recommend to non-techies.

Welcome to Mint!

Re:This could be good news... (1)

invictusvoyd (3546069) | about 5 months ago | (#46480509)

What's the real need for wayland? Does it justify the effort?

Re:This could be good news... (3, Informative)

jones_supa (887896) | about 5 months ago | (#46480637)

Much better performance, no tearing problems, smooth compositing and desktop effects, old legacy X11 crap thrown away.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480685)

Much better performance: Nonsense. The Wayland architecture is basically the same as X. A message protocol over a UNIX domain socket + some efficient buffer sharing.

smooth compositing and desktop effects: Can be done with X11 as well (missing improvements seem to come with DRI3 and the present extension)

old legacy X11 crap thrown away: Other words for: Breaks backwards compatibility.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

Bengie (1121981) | about 5 months ago | (#46481455)

Wayland is magnitudes faster. Wayland's protocol just tells the compositor where a memory buffer is and what to do with it, unlike X, which has to sends thousands of draw primitives. It's like comparing Java to C and claiming they're the same because they both use an equal sign for assignment.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

udippel (562132) | about 5 months ago | (#46481041)

Much better performance, no tearing problems, smooth compositing and desktop effects, old legacy X11 crap thrown away.

Are you repeating here what you read up elsewhere, or have you actually suffered from those? Here, none of that has been visible for the last 5 years. On 'normal' desktop applications, I should add. Okay, maybe some tearing, at times, without Vsync. But is this really worthwhile all the fuss? To me not.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Lumpy (12016) | about 5 months ago | (#46481127)

Desktop_effects... those are highly important to getting work done.

This is the problem nothing is being done for real performance... it's all for glitter and oooh shiny.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

Bengie (1121981) | about 5 months ago | (#46481485)

If you're trying to sell a device that appeals to 80% of people, you best make it look pretty, otherwise they're just going to use iOS. Anyway, your argument is no different than me saying fun and games are all pointless, people should spend their entire life working, then immediately die when they are no longer useful. Life isn't just about getting work done, it's also about the pretty and fun.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481171)

Much better performance

Any actual real world data (read: benchmarks that show a practically useful improvement) to back that up ? Also, Wayland removes support for 2D acceleration, and existing X applications would have to use an emulation layer, that is, running an instance of X on top of Wayland.

no tearing problems

Can be fixed without replacing X, and is a minor issue anyway.

smooth compositing and desktop effects

These are generally among the first things I disable when installing a Linux distribution. The fewer useless and performance/reliability crippling gimmicks there are enabled, the better it is for practical usability.

old legacy X11 crap thrown away.

In other words: no backward compatibility with existing software. Well, one can always just run the Windows version with Wine (I already do it sometimes, since it can be easier than solving Linux dependency mess). Or just wipe Linux and use Windows instead, where one can actually expect applications to work out of the box, even after a long time.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

jones_supa (887896) | about 5 months ago | (#46481245)

Much better performance

Any actual real world data (read: benchmarks that show a practically useful improvement) to back that up ? Also, Wayland removes support for 2D acceleration, and existing X applications would have to use an emulation layer, that is, running an instance of X on top of Wayland.

I do not have. I base that only on what I have heard.

no tearing problems

Can be fixed without replacing X, and is a minor issue anyway.

Not a minor issue at all. Of default Linux installations, only Compiz-based ones can reliably prevent tearing. Mutter tears slightly, but it can be fixed with some configuration. XFCE tears because the default compositor uses XRender (the default compositor can be replaced with Compton to fix the issue). KDE tears by default on some systems unless "full screen repaints" is selected. LXDE does not ship with a compositor and all so it tears greatly. So tearing can be avoided with careful setup with X.org too, but it is not something that "just works". Not a minor issue as you say.

smooth compositing and desktop effects

These are generally among the first things I disable when installing a Linux distribution. The fewer useless and performance/reliability crippling gimmicks there are enabled, the better it is for practical usability.

A little bit of glitter does not hamper usability. It's nice to have zoom animations for window minimize/restore, and a fade out effect for menus. Those run reliably and smoothly on Windows 7/8 even on low end hardware. Put a Linux desktop on a low-end Atom/Bobcat system and the same effects are choppy and take more system resources.

old legacy X11 crap thrown away.

In other words: no backward compatibility with existing software. Well, one can always just run the Windows version with Wine (I already do it sometimes, since it can be easier than solving Linux dependency mess). Or just wipe Linux and use Windows instead, where one can actually expect applications to work out of the box, even after a long time.

That is certainly true, but after the transition phase, I believe we can adapt most open source software to be Wayland-compatible.

Re:This could be good news... (1)

Bengie (1121981) | about 5 months ago | (#46481505)

Can be fixed without replacing X, and is a minor issue anyway.

You lie or are ignorant. Several of the lead devs of X have stated that tearing in X cannot be fixed without completely breaking the protocol. They've been trying to fix this issue since '95. Your basic understanding of this simple concept makes everything you say questionable.

Re:This could be good news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481243)

What's the real need for wayland? Does it justify the effort?

It does not, but when did that stop FOSS developers from reinventing the wheel and replacing things that work, due to politics, NIH syndrome, egoism, or whatever other stupid reason ? It will result in a few years of mess with bugs and broken applications, and then everything will work more or less like before with X. Fortunately, one can easily avoid the PITA by doing what 95% of other PC users do, and just switch to Windows.

Re:This could be good news... (2)

DrXym (126579) | about 5 months ago | (#46481071)

Wayland will still be experimental in Fedora 21 and turned on in 22. That means it will have possibly 12 months on Mr but it's still away from any sort of widespread use.

I don't see Mir as being in much competition though. Canonical have hobbled interest in it due to the restrictive licence and contributors agreement and most people regard it as divisive. I will be interested to see what the gubuntu dist do when GNOME shell is fully Wayland compatible - whether they intend to use it or if they will be constrained by Canonical and leave GNOME using X until they can port it to Mir.

Oh shiz (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480047)

Dat's what you get for suckin da dick

Re:Oh shiz (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480085)

Dat's what you get for suckin da dick

Please elaborate. Share your thoughts on this issue.

Re:Oh shiz (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480111)

Maybe you need to suck some dick. It would make you less a prick.

Re:Oh shiz (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480155)

You are what you eat

L king to co-host moms of the nile conference? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480049)

who else? the MANic WMD cabalists are forcefully demanding the new queen of the nile be a guy? the king will have to do his best howard cosell?

X got from Version 1 to Version 11 in 3 years (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480089)

So, stop slacking, Mir and Wayland!

Re:X got from Version 1 to Version 11 in 3 years (4, Insightful)

GigaplexNZ (1233886) | about 5 months ago | (#46480163)

Version numbers don't mean a whole lot. Google Chrome hasn't changed much in 33 versions.

I don't know why anyone bothers with Linux. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480105)

My young, hip and "with it" niece ADORES Windows 8. She just absolutely LOVES IT. They are getting married this summer.

Re:I don't know why anyone bothers with Linux. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480251)

Is she hot?

Re:I don't know why anyone bothers with Linux. (1)

udippel (562132) | about 5 months ago | (#46481045)

Is she hot?

Marrying Windows 8 precludes the need of an answer ... .

Debian Minimal Install (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480119)

It's simple. Install Debian Minimal and build your system up to what you want it to be.

Want a desktop or several desktops to switch between?
Your choice

Want a window manager or several of them to switch between?
Your choice

It's all your choice.

Show me why I should choose any flavor of Ubuntu when I can use Debian Minimal Install and create my own experiences?

Re:Debian Minimal Install (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480175)

because debian is for gaybos

Re:Debian Minimal Install (1)

flyingfsck (986395) | about 5 months ago | (#46480393)

Ubuntu is for users who don't quite know what they are doing yet. It is somewhat like religion - eventually you grow up and move on.

Re:Debian Minimal Install (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480513)

That's Linux in general. Eventually you realize that Linux isn't worth the trouble and that it isn't fun anymore and that you have better stuff to do in your free time, and so you switch back to Windows.

Re:Debian Minimal Install (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480705)

okay so according to you guys, Debian is for homosexual atheists who switch back to Windows?

Re:Debian Minimal Install (1)

Mitchell314 (1576581) | about 5 months ago | (#46480995)

You misspelled BSD; it doesn't have any 'w's in it.

Display server is a forced choice (1)

enos (627034) | about 5 months ago | (#46480675)

This Mir/Weyland/X debate is NOT another KDE v.s. Gnome or Emacs v.s. VI. In those debates every user is able to choose what they prefer.

The display server choice is made by the software writer, not the end user. If the end user wants to use a particular piece of software, they will have to use the display server that the software requires. There is no choice.

Re:Display server is a forced choice (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481523)

According to the GPL reasoning, there is choice. As long as the source code is open, it empowers the user and allows them to make their own choices.. oh wait, not every user can program. Well, there goes that argument.

Re:Debian Minimal Install (2)

kthreadd (1558445) | about 5 months ago | (#46480697)

You are aware of that Ubuntu has the same thing, right? On 12.04 and older you can install it from the alternate CD installer, just select to do a minimal install at the boot screen. Later releases moved it to the server CD install but the result should be the same. It basically installs the ubuntu-minimal meta package and nothing else.

Re:Debian Minimal Install (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481087)

"You are aware of that Ubuntu has the same thing, right?"

Yes. And the packages come from Ubuntu repositories. FAIL.

I want the purity of Debian instead of the mess that I feel Ubuntu has become. I want to use Debian repositories.

***by*** 16.04 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480123)

not wait "until" 16.04, by 16.04 we should definitely be on Mir.. The same way by 16.04 we plan to be on systemd. But much of the switch will happen in 14.10, some more in 15.04, etc....

PhD thesis or display server? (5, Interesting)

dacut (243842) | about 5 months ago | (#46480197)

I've found (as a rule of thumb) that, when asking a grad student "How much time do you think you have left before you can write up your thesis?", if the answer is two or more years out then it really means "I don't know." The student honestly believes this answer, but in reality he/she doesn't know how much he/she doesn't know.

I'm starting to feel about the same with Mir and Canonical here. Shuttleworth is the tenured but aloof professor who casually coaxes his students (employees) toward completing milestones but without too much urgency. Money's not plentiful, but the professor has enough contacts and contracts to keep his lab going and give a stipend to his students. They put out a few papers (releases) each year, and each time the students think this grand project is "almost done"... only to discover that there's still more left to do.

There's tremendous value in this kind of exploratory research. I'm just not sure it makes sense to package it up for end users.

If I were Mark Shuttleworth's technical advisor, I'd suggest examining RedHat's Fedora model. Create a small group called Canonical Labs where stuff like Mir and Unity can flourish, with continuous releases and without the artificial constraint of a set release date. (If this makes the environment too lackadaisical and development isn't progressing fast enough, find some other way to instill discipline and/or motivation; don't make it the threat of moving alpha code to end-users.) When it's stabilized (no longer shuffling menus and window icons around, for example), then integrate it with the main Ubuntu branch. Something a bit more edgy and up-to-date than Debian Stable or RHEL, but not so much that it constantly upends your users.

No big deal (3, Funny)

Thanosius (3519547) | about 5 months ago | (#46480253)

Delays just mean they're working on perfecting and producing the best of what they're trying to develop, and that once released it'll be a crowning moment of awesome as a consequence of the delays. Just like Duke Nukem Forever.

Another (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480319)

Hurd vs Linux ? Awesome! Not..

Re:Another (2)

Chrisq (894406) | about 5 months ago | (#46480761)

Hurd vs Linux ? Awesome! Not..

At the moment this is looking more like Hurd vs Plan 9. Neither wayland nor Mir have mass appeal or momentum.

Re:Another (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481081)

plan 9 vs HURD vs Stallmans great beard
Linux wins

Yuo fAil 1t!? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480779)

Ads on the desktop (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46480785)

Fuck Ubuntu. DIAF.

Werevapour (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46481221)

Mir is half a meerkat that turns into vapour at full moon.

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