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Canadian Health Scientists Resort To Sneaker Net After Funding Slashed

Unknown Lamer posted about 8 months ago | from the hide-the-books-in-fred's-basement dept.

Books 168

sandbagger writes "Health Canada scientists are so concerned about losing access to their research library that they're finding workarounds, with one squirreling away journals and books in his basement for colleagues to consult, says a report obtained by CBC News. The report said the number of in-house librarians went from 40 in 2007 to just six in April 2013. 'I look at it as an insidious plan to discourage people from using libraries' said Dr. Rudi Mueller, who left the department in 2012. 'If you want to justify closing a library, you make access difficult and then you say it is hardly used.' This is hardly new for Stephen Harper's Conservative government. Over the Christmas holidays, several scientific libraries were closed and their contents taken to the dump."

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Not only in the US... (4, Insightful)

surfdaddy (930829) | about 8 months ago | (#46019651)

...are we batshit crazy. What the FUCK ever happened to science? We are descending back into the dark ages...

Re:Not only in the US... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019697)

Science involves education. Educated masses are not useful to political parties.

Re:Not only in the US... (2, Interesting)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 8 months ago | (#46020109)

Conversely, religion involves indoctrination.

Consolidated masses are very useful to political parties.

Re:Not only in the US... (1)

postbigbang (761081) | about 8 months ago | (#46021445)

But both require funding. Patents for protection. New pharma for profits before the patents can expire. Patent portfolio trading and litigation. Oppress the innovators, for they don't make us any revenue.

Lead the lemmings to the cliffs. Make them buy or die. Threaten new products with massive litigation costs so that investors will shy away. Bribe the legislatures to protect the monopolies. Buy out any interesting startups so that no one can take their place and use their intellectual property as threats to others that might try.

Keep the government out. They have no place here. It should all be in the hands of private business to manipulate at will. Keep the masses fighting about social issues so that these will eclipse what's going on behind the curtain of the Oz built from the fruits of the yellow bricks.

This isn't about future generations; this is about wealth protection for the current generations so that their children can survive the coming dark years before the end times.

Sorry, I was channeling Palin again.

Re:Not only in the US... (2)

lgw (121541) | about 8 months ago | (#46019791)

Wait, isn't the Canadian Library Association controversy the story we just read? Or was that some different CLA?

(BTW, there was slow but steady technological and economic progress during the "dark ages", it led pretty smoothly into the Enlightenment)

Re:Not only in the US... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020423)

Insidious plans and Stephen Harper go hand-in-hand.

Re:Not only in the US... (5, Insightful)

dryeo (100693) | about 8 months ago | (#46020713)

You're thinking of the closures of the fisheries libraries over the holidays. This is the closure of the health libraries. The other year it was the closure of a bunch of research stations. It's the typical right wing agenda, cut taxes slightly so business doesn't have to give cost of living wages, increase spending so the government is running in the red (they came into power with a pretty good surplus) then cut those parts of government that don't agree with their ideology and give lots of money to their favourite industry, oil. Bonus with all the government re-purposed to supporting the tar business they can claim that they're spending more on science then ever.

Re:Not only in the US... (4, Insightful)

Slur (61510) | about 8 months ago | (#46019795)

It's become something of a crusade of mine lately to promote reason, spurred on by stories like this, the rise of scientific illiteracy, and the destruction of culture through a dumbed-down commercial media. I'm not down with any specific ideology, in fact I promote rising above ideology to a more anthropological and phenomenological view of humanity and nature, and a faithful application of empiricism to all things we call "knowledge." Too many people invoke the chemical feeling of "belief" just to get high on it, and have no interest in the hard won truth which comes by skeptical inquiry. Too many of us are willing to swallow conspiracy theories that fit our overblown narratives of authoritarian control, as well, and in that manner also become stupid with time-wasting and untenable beliefs.

I urge people to get into understanding things as they actually are, practicing their arts and exploring the sciences with enthusiasm, focusing on results rather than just pure jollies. Religion, ideology, and self-deception are insidious traps that can hold people for a lifetime, and are very hard to fight against because people are so inured. But fight we must.

Re:Not only in the US... (2)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 8 months ago | (#46020185)

Your quest is commendable, but realities suggest a general readiness to succumb to the belief system.

It's just easier for many to believe in something than it is to understand everything.

There is comfort in the validation of long held beliefs, no matter the measure of it's bias on the scientific method.

Re:Not only in the US... (3, Insightful)

stranger_to_himself (1132241) | about 8 months ago | (#46020395)

That's fine so long as you're telling people how things are, but very limited if you want to think about how they should be. The problem with abdicating from advocacy is that there are plenty of people without your knowledge, understanding or benevolence who are prepared to fill in the gaps for you. This is why 'promoting societal good' is rightly now a key aspect of scientific endeavour.

Well said. (1)

ridgecritter (934252) | about 8 months ago | (#46020961)

Thank you.

Re:Not only in the US... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46021061)

Pure empiricism is dangerous if there is not good theory to back it up. The ideal is that you can reason from plausible first principles to make precise predictions that match observed results. In practice there are always subjective choices about which evidence to ignore (because something probably went wrong, a coincidence occurred, etc) and which type of evidence gathering to perform/fund.

Re:Not only in the US... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46021549)

Thank you Marcus Aurelius.

Re:Not only in the US... (5, Informative)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 8 months ago | (#46019801)

...are we batshit crazy. What the FUCK ever happened to science? We are descending back into the dark ages...

In the specific context of Canada, certain uppity scientists suggested that there might be unpleasant environmental side-effects to the plan to use tar sands to turn Canada into a dysfunctional petrostate.

In a not-at-all-dysfunctional-petrostate move, the Harper regime decided to show those uppity scientists where they could shove their 'evidence'. (Probably not a library, anymore)

Re:Not only in the US... (3, Funny)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 8 months ago | (#46019867)

One can say now that a trip to the dump could be "a truly educational experience."

Who would benefit from the destruction of knowledge in Canada?

Re:Not only in the US... (5, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about 8 months ago | (#46019903)

Who would benefit from the destruction of knowledge in Canada?

A government who refuses to make evidence-based decisions, and instead likes to believe their ideology defines reality.

Re:Not only in the US... (5, Informative)

Concerned Onlooker (473481) | about 8 months ago | (#46021293)

That also covers the US under the Bush administration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... [wikipedia.org]

A quote from Ron Suskind, 2004 (the aide he is referring to was later identified as Karl Rove):

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality--judiciously, as you will--we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Re:Not only in the US... (4, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 8 months ago | (#46019933)

The two major players would be tar sands development and (relatively distant second) fisheries lobbies who would rather fish their quarry into extinction and then go bankrupt, rather than suffer some sort of limits now in the service of having fish in the future.

The fisheries guys are comparatively small-time (and have been around for decades, and also have a love/hate relationship with scientific fish experts, nobody likes being subject to quotas; but fishermen aren't dumb enough to think that the future of fishing is in having no fish, so they agree in principle, if not in yearly numbers and exact population estimates, with the science guys), so my money would be on the tar sands sector.

Re: Not only in the US... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019953)

The same people who would profit from that everywhere else. Timid conservatives (sorry, that was redundant), religious idiots, power hungry megalomaniacs who want docile, easy to control citizens, oligarchs who want cheap, uneducated workforce, luddites.

In a nutshell : all the assholes of this world.

Re:Not only in the US... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020051)

Things like this have been going on for some time in Canada. For example, world class science was being done at the Experimental Lakes Area, see section on it's defunding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_Lakes_Area

I'm from Buffalo NY (USA) and we recently spent a weekend with some scientist friends in Toronto -- they took us to a lecture about this major problem. One of the conclusions was that scientists (in Canada) aren't used to political action, so this government move has (to some extent) blindsided them.

The real dark ages - physical matter for ideas (-1, Troll)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 8 months ago | (#46020329)

What the FUCK ever happened to science?

Well apparently "science" decided to hide data behind paper walls, making it accessible to a small elite.

The plan backfired when they couldn't pay the storage dues - any loss of data falls on them, and them alone, for us not being able to simply mirror the data to hard drives around the world.

Frankly I am not sure much of value was lost, the secretive sorts also tend to be the people fabricating data/results, and with records this old who can say what is true from what was studied?

Re: The real dark ages - physical matter for ideas (3, Informative)

Vanderhoth (1582661) | about 8 months ago | (#46020411)

Actually 5 years ago personal HDs were made against the rule. They were collected then outright band from the network. Employees were mandated to use server storage, but in the last two years, with the creation of Shared Services Canada, there's been confusion about who's supposed to provide that service. A budy of mine who works for DFO is always complaining about fights with IM&TS and SSC. Both suppose to provide a service neither one doing it. Data is the casualty.

Re: The real dark ages - physical matter for idea (1)

Vanderhoth (1582661) | about 8 months ago | (#46020421)

Sorry, meant personal external HDs

Re: The real dark ages - physical matter for ideas (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | about 8 months ago | (#46020511)

So what I don't understand here is what is being lost really if there are digital records of this paper data - or did they never digitize anything? I know there is a cost to it, but over time even a volunteer effort can make large inroads...

Re: The real dark ages - physical matter for idea (1)

Vanderhoth (1582661) | about 8 months ago | (#46020697)

You have no idea how much data there is. Going back hundreds of years... at least there was. Wish I could say more, but I'm on my phone.

Re: The real dark ages - physical matter for ideas (1)

dryeo (100693) | about 8 months ago | (#46020807)

They digitized a few pages as that was all there was funding for. It's the usual bullshit, increase spending while slightly lowering taxes until the government has spent its surplus and gone into debt (we had 8 years of surplus before these guys got in) then scream and panic about cutting spending and cut whatever is against their ideology. Their ideology in this case is that government exists to serve the oil industry.

Slashdot is lost to the luddite cult (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020497)

So someone gets down-modded for being the person who dares to point out they should have digitized data long ago? What kind of Slashdot is this, filled with moderating luddites who proclaim Science to be holy and even the worst mistakes scientists makes are holy things, not to be criticized.

And you morons wonder why the general populace is drifting away from science? Believe me, it's not them - it's you. Actions like continuing to keep PAPER RECORDS in this day and age are the metaphorical equivalent of massive B.O., the populace reeling away from the stench of your actions and religion being the only other reason they can find as you offer none.

Re:The real dark ages - physical matter for ideas (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020675)

Well apparently "science" decided to hide data behind paper walls, making it accessible to a small elite.

What complete and utter crap.

The scientists who monitored these things kept libraries, containing their research journals, results, and papers and the supporting documentation.

And you, like a fucking moron, jump to the conclusion that "a small elite" have been secretly hoarding all of this information.

You're a fucking idiot. Some of this stuff is decades old, and predates when you could digitize it.

The government has claimed they're going to digitize it, but the evidence so far indicates they've barely tried to do that, and are moving straight onto destroying records.

The people complaining are the people who were trying to preserve the data and keep it accessible.

The secretive douchebags here are the politicians who don't like it when facts get in the way of policy -- because this government makes policy on what they want to be true, and seldom give a damn about what is actually true.

Oddly, we see the exact same pattern in the US with your neocons, who like to believe when they say reality is X, the rest of the world jumps and says "yes sir, reality is now X".

This is a political game, and if you can remove the stuff that proves your government is either lying or failing to make decisions based on actual evidence -- then you can pretend you have all of the answers.

Sorry, but your screed is directed at the wrong group here, and you are full of shit. The scientists wanted this stuff digitized, and had been told that it would be digitized -- they aren't the ones trying to keep the information secret and only available to them.

Your entire post tells us you are a moron, who believes scientists are secretly conspiring to make sure they have all the information and the rest of us have none.

Go crawl back under your rock.

Re:Not only in the US... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020821)

To paraphrase Sid's Alpha Centauri:
 
Beware those who would deny you knowledge,
For in their hearts they dream themselves your master

Re:Not only in the US... (1)

k31 (98145) | about 8 months ago | (#46020847)

Nobody will notice.

The shiny rectangles [theonion.com] will keep them filled with 'dark light of unenlightenment'.

Re:Not only in the US... (0)

Mashiki (184564) | about 8 months ago | (#46021191)

Science is just fine in Canada, in reality you're reading a story from the CBC. The equivalent of Pravda, with more spitshine and gloss. They have an axe to grind against any government that isn't the liberal party, and sometimes the NDP.

Re:Not only in the US... (1)

downundarob (184525) | about 8 months ago | (#46021387)

The newly elected (Sep 2013) Australian Government no longer has a Science Minister.

But there's good news (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019661)

They'll welcome Slashdotters with serious software skills who keep saying they can no longer live under the US government.

Odd Change of Paradigm (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019663)

Used to be, we wanted to know everything about everything. Now it seems there are powers out there that want a select few to keep their knowledge, and everyone else should know nothing.

Re:Odd Change of Paradigm (5, Insightful)

neiras (723124) | about 8 months ago | (#46019869)

Used to be, we wanted to know everything about everything. Now it seems there are powers out there that want a select few to keep their knowledge, and everyone else should know nothing.

This. The whole "knowledge is power" thing isn't just a platitude. The rich and powerful have realized that the lower classes are beginning to figure out a little too much for their liking. I think the Internet upset the balance a bit and gave 'em a scare until they realized that Facebook was the great pacifier.

Mobile tech, internet addiction, social media, health care costs, mortgages, unpaid internships and student loan debt... control the population by enforcing a giant wealth/knowlege/skills/health/opportunity gap. Let the plebs smash themselves to bits trying to get ahead.

Can't fix the system by playing a part in it.

Re:Odd Change of Paradigm (1)

dmbasso (1052166) | about 8 months ago | (#46020223)

Why is this post moderated as troll? Cold fjord received mod points?

Re:Odd Change of Paradigm (1)

pepty (1976012) | about 8 months ago | (#46020055)

Hey now, they do want people to know something about everything. They'll even spend hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money to inform everyone about those opinions they should agree with. Bless their hearts.

Re:Odd Change of Paradigm (1)

dryeo (100693) | about 8 months ago | (#46020865)

Spend their own money? No, this government spends more on advertizing then all the previous governments put together. If you ever see ads about the keystone pipeline, remember that it is the taxpayers of Canada paying for those ads.

So-called "conservatism" in action. (4, Insightful)

bmo (77928) | about 8 months ago | (#46019679)

'If you want to justify closing a library, you make access difficult and then you say it is hardly used.'

So we have "starve the beast" in Canada now.

Spiffy. Not.

--
BMO

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019705)

When you spend years running on the failure of government, is it any wonder when you get into power and make that happen even faster?

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (4, Insightful)

NoNonAlphaCharsHere (2201864) | about 8 months ago | (#46019865)

Why do electorates keep falling for this "Government doesn't work! Vote for me, and I'll PROVE it!" crap?

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019987)

Well you could vote for the guy who promised affordable healthcare, or at least able to keep your plan.
Or the guy that promised to close Gitmo.
Or the guy that promised to stop middle east wars, then attacked Libya.
Or the guy that promised to prevent Iran from getting nukes, then removed their sanctions in return letting them enrich Uranium.
Or the guy that said if you give him $850 Billion he will restore the economy and create shovel ready jobs.
Or the guy that promised to end warrant less wiretapping and then defends the NSA.

I don't know. Maybe because big government DOESN'T work. Could that be the reason?

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020087)

Well you could vote for the guy [...]

Or, in the case of americans, you guys could try to vote for any party other than the two responsible for fucking everyone over all the damn time? Of course, that's easy on paper but in practice it wouldn't work as it'd require billions and the only way to get that kind of money is by making a deal with the devil, or if he isn't morally corrupt enough, the usual culprits.

I don't know. Maybe because big government DOESN'T work. Could that be the reason?

The system is working as designed. It's a feature, not a bug.

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (-1, Flamebait)

rmdingler (1955220) | about 8 months ago | (#46020307)

Well done cowards.

This is why I'm up after dark, on my own time, posting on the Green Line Site.

Mmm hmmm... a little coward on coward action.

Just so you guys (and when I say guys, I mean revolutionaries) know, life here is too good so far.

Is the quality slippin'?

Sure. Just not fast enough to get out of the slowly warming pot of water.

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (1)

bmo (77928) | about 8 months ago | (#46020455)

Or the guy who had adopted the oh so brilliant minds of the Foreign Policy Initiative (nee PNAC) so that we would be dropping bombs on Tehran two months after inauguration.

His Romneyness didn't back away from the statements by Dan Senor that we would be at war with Iran at the behest of Israel.

--
BMO

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020977)

So you support the guy that you know lies to you.

Listen up DNC, just lie to BMO here and he will support you. Don't bother following up on your promises, because he is so stupid he will still support you and shill for you online for free.

And people wonder why things are they way they are.

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (1)

dryeo (100693) | about 8 months ago | (#46020883)

Here in Canada we're actually suffering from the tyranny of the minority. The Conservatives got 38% of the voters who bothered to vote.

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (1)

Mashiki (184564) | about 8 months ago | (#46021203)

Ah you mean the Liberals were elected to power when I wasn't looking? If you want an example of tyranny of the minority you only need to look there and the amount of special-interest crap that went on during the Chretien days. Especially the massive-super-screwover of Western Canada and the Eastern provinces. The only thing that mattered to them was: Ontario(electorate), and Quebec(electorate). The current government is at least working with the primers of each province, and isn't telling them to go away(Chretien did that multiple times).

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020691)

This still makes me chuckle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbZjGGWk528

Re:So-called "conservatism" in action. (0)

GeekBoy (10877) | about 8 months ago | (#46021425)

It's not so called conservatism it's actually conservatism. The public service in Canada is pretty large and it's not sustainable. Canada is basically going through it's own downsizing of government they started about 1-2 years ago when they laid-off a lot of public sector employees and reduced spending all around. Every public servant in Ottawa was in a tizzy for months, you'd have thought the world was coming to an end to hear them speak of the calamities that were going to result in this. Personally, as a Canadian I pay way too much in taxes already while public servants make more, work less and have big pensions that they can retire on. Me, I'll probably never be able to retire.

So yes, this is liberal hand waving at it's finest. (And just so you know, national archives and many other gov't department 'libraries' are the places where they send the people no other group wants; because of the unions they can't fire them.)

NWO Illuminati (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019699)

You can't own most of the wealth if one country has too much progress.

Reality has a well known liberal bias (5, Funny)

presidenteloco (659168) | about 8 months ago | (#46019739)

In fairness, the libraries aren't being closed. They're being re-purposed as public relations offices responsible for such things as communicating the need to move forward with new forms of multimodal multimedia information dissemination, on a go forward basis.

Also, the books are not being dumped, they're being converted into bio-fuel (burned in very efficient co-generation waste incinerators).

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019959)

"Reality has a well known liberal bias"

What smug bullshit.

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020247)

Butt-hurt much?

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 8 months ago | (#46019969)

Public Relations = Lobbying

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (-1, Offtopic)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46019997)

Reality has a well known liberal bias

It is the reporting that has a well known liberal bias, the facts of life are conservative.

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020221)

the facts of life are conservative

Says the guy who wants Obama to tuck him into bed every night and check for monsters under it.

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (0)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46020637)

You have no idea how funny I find that. You have no clue about me at all. LOL

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (-1, Offtopic)

gstoddart (321705) | about 8 months ago | (#46020695)

It is the reporting that has a well known liberal bias, the facts of life are conservative.

What's it like to go through life that stupid?

Re:Reality has a well known liberal bias (-1, Offtopic)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46020855)

What's it like? It's like a considerable improvement over your brand, only more so.

Like the Fisheries libraries (4, Informative)

cold fjord (826450) | about 8 months ago | (#46019771)

Once again the data is (allegedly) retained, but moved and is now less convenient to access.

Before the main library closed, the inter-library loan functions were outsourced to a private company called Infotrieve, the consultant wrote in a report ordered by the department. The library's physical collection was moved to the National Science Library on the Ottawa campus of the National Research Council last year.

Re:Like the Fisheries libraries (4, Funny)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 8 months ago | (#46019813)

Unfortunately, the new "Beware of the leopard" signs are still in the contract-tender phase, and are expected to be delayed. In the meantime, feel free to check the locked filing cabinet.

Re:Like the Fisheries libraries (2)

Ichijo (607641) | about 8 months ago | (#46020061)

With the inter-library loan system, there doesn't really need to be a physical copy of every book in every library, because it's expensive to house so many books, especially in areas with high land prices. But instead of shutting down libraries, they should be downsizing them so they're still local, and moving to digital copies of books. A neighborhood library could be nothing more than a shelf full of holds, a drop box for returns, and a few terminals to request holds and check out physical and digital books. A kiosk at the local mall might be big enough for all that.

Re:Like the Fisheries libraries (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 8 months ago | (#46020669)

and if you need reference help of course you are screwed because there is no librarian.

Neo-Conservatives and education are incompatible. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019779)

They don't like "experts", "indoctrination", public servants, unions, facts that conflict with domestic rhetoric, have banned CRITICAL THINKING in Texas, tried to eliminate the Dept. of Education, tried to keep minorities/migrants out as possible, and it seems the only remaining motivation they could have for destroying these establishments as possible is to prevent people from realizing that their brand of politik isn't about what you KNOW, but what you BELIEVE in the face of contrary fact.

This is the cargo cult. And you're the cargo, ultimately.

Re:Neo-Conservatives and education are incompatibl (2, Insightful)

plopez (54068) | about 8 months ago | (#46019851)

Wasn't there some Austrian dude who like burned a bunch of books and restricted what would be taught in schools to only support his totally bogus regime?

Re:Neo-Conservatives and education are incompatibl (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020045)

Hey, I know Arnold Schwarzenegger did some unpopular things, but I haven't heard anything about the book burning.

Re:Neo-Conservatives and education are incompatibl (1)

squisher (212661) | about 8 months ago | (#46020407)

Hey, I know Arnold Schwarzenegger did some unpopular things, but I haven't heard anything about the book burning.

Turns out Schwarzeneggger isn't the only Austrian dude out there who ended up in government in another country...

Re:Neo-Conservatives and education are incompatibl (1)

bob_super (3391281) | about 8 months ago | (#46020265)

Yes, but he achieved full employment, no debt, huge GDP growth, major scientific progress, and offered free train trips to millions regardless of their class.
He just had to deal with minor terrorism issues, but our governments have learnt from his mistakes.

You get the best government you deserve (1, Insightful)

worldthinker (536300) | about 8 months ago | (#46019817)

If the people of Canada think this is horrid and despicable, they only have to look into the mirror to see who is responsible for electing a Tory government. Next thing you know, your precious universal health care will be under siege. Wake up neighbors!!!

Re:You get the best government you deserve (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019893)

You get the best government you deserve

Stop it. Just stop with this. Does an average person have any control over a government? No. They can write letters or vote for whatever paid-off politician they wish.

That does not mean they are getting what they deserve. They are merely getting what people with power and influence want. Nothing more.

Re: You get the best government you deserve (3, Informative)

Vanderhoth (1582661) | about 8 months ago | (#46019977)

We have 3 parties the Tories won a majority from just over 37% of the vote. Most of which came from Alberta (North Texas). There's not much the other 63% of us can do, it's how the system works. That being said 2015 is an election year, hopefully the damage Harper's done to the public service by then will be remembered.

Re: You get the best government you deserve (1)

MachDelta (704883) | about 8 months ago | (#46020659)

Most of which came from Alberta (North Texas).

2011 election, Tory seats won:
Ontario: 73
All four western provinces: 72
The land of Oil and Evil and Oil (aka Alberta): 27

Like Texas, everything is bigger in Alberta. Including, apparently, our votes.

Re: You get the best government you deserve (1)

prince_of_disks (1225678) | about 8 months ago | (#46021365)

~40% vote won in election with ~60% voter turnout = ~24% electorate represented. This Harper government represents a "majority" in no genuine sense.

Re:You get the best government you deserve (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020483)

You might want to read up on the election fraud that occurred here. Google: "2011 Canadian federal election voter suppression scandal", aka the Robocall Scandal.

The Cons worked hard at getting that swept under the rug. For any act like this that politicians get caught in, you can bet there's probably a dozen more they pulled off without the public knowing.

Wasn't there a story about this (1)

plopez (54068) | about 8 months ago | (#46019839)

By like some famous author dude where you couldn't get books so people like memorized them or something?

Re:Wasn't there a story about this (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019937)

fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury, nice one

Re:Wasn't there a story about this (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019943)

By like some famous author dude where you couldn't get books so people like memorized them or something?

Books are the source of evil. They must be burned lest some crazy ideas creep into the minds of the populace.
We wouldn't want that. Keep them ignorant. Keep them in front of a 100 inch lcd/plasma wall display. But for pete's sake don't give them books. Your civic duty is to denounce those hippies that still cling to those old fashioned dead trees. Burn them, burn them all to hell. Remember citizen, the only good book is a burned book.

To the dump!? (1)

Immerman (2627577) | about 8 months ago | (#46019841)

What a horrible waste. I hope they at least had the libraries open to the public as a well-publicized "everything's free bookstore" for a few weeks before hauling the leftovers to the dump.

I remember my library growing up had a "free shelf" in the basement of old books that were to be discarded. They were often a bit tattered and worn, but what a treasure trove for a young book lover on a shoestring budget.

Re:To the dump!? (1)

the_fat_kid (1094399) | about 8 months ago | (#46020007)

that sounds like a step down the slope of Communism.
The kind of people who throw away whole libraries wouldn't dream of letting people have the books for free.
They aren't trying to privatize the library, they are trying to bury it.
It's about making information that you don't want go away.

Re:To the dump!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020121)

Exactly. The information thrown out involved data sets collected going around a hundred years. A number of universities would have probably been willing to take possession of those records but the government never provided any notice to any one that the documents were just going to get shipped to the dump. They were supposed to get "digitized" by a third party that only digitized a small portion of the records and threw out the rest. By having a third-party to blame, the government can claim plausible deniability and, if the heat gets too high, that's probably what they will do.

Re:To the dump!? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about 8 months ago | (#46020315)

It's extremism of the same sort the Islamic Fundamentalists practice.

Next up is no education for girls and religious instead of secular law.

Don't believe everything you read (1, Informative)

GeekBoy (10877) | about 8 months ago | (#46019905)

I lived in Ottawa for over 15 years and worked with government employees every day. Anything that comes along and 'the sky is falling' this is just more of the same nonsense.

Re:Don't believe everything you read (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020025)

... "more funding please" -- words heard from government officials, and from scientists. In this case, it's a twofer.

Re:Don't believe everything you read (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020279)

Seems to me that a reduction in staff from 40 to 6 is not a matter of requesting more funding. How about just not cutting it by 85%?

F* Conservatives (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46019927)

Over the Christmas holidays, several scientific libraries were closed and their contents taken to the dump.

Thanks Harper, you made me tear up a bit. WTF is it with conservatives and book burning, knowledge destruction, and generally going out of their way to be assholes? Someone needs to dump Harper at the dump and take a dump on him.

Can they crowdsource adoption? (1)

spiritplumber (1944222) | about 8 months ago | (#46019979)

If we each get one and scan it... I'd be game, so would my significant other.

Re:Can they crowdsource adoption? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020413)

This is probably the only way to do it going forward. Governments have shown that they cannot be trusted.

They are doing this to all Federal Libraries (5, Informative)

thirdpoliceman (1350013) | about 8 months ago | (#46020161)

I worked for Natural Resources Canada's library system in 2011. My friend worked at Transportation Canada.

They closed Transportation Canada's library system. It no longer exists. Who knows what happened to the information there, if it even exists any more. My friend told me they housed some of the world's foremost research on transportation science, and were called upon by international colleagues to provide them with information.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/... [www.cbc.ca]

They did a similar thing to the library at the Ministry of Fisheries and Oceans

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politic... [www.cbc.ca]

Environment Canada

http://o.canada.com/news/last-... [canada.com]

This government has a war on science and knowledge and actively prohibits scientists from speaking to the media without government approval.

http://scienceblogs.com/confes... [scienceblogs.com]

The Conservative government does not care about facts. They have policies they want to implement, and they will do WHATEVER it takes to ensure those policies are enacted. Even if it means destroying our scientific heritage.

Alternate Headline (2, Insightful)

CauseBy (3029989) | about 8 months ago | (#46020249)

Alternate Headline: "Public Agency Finds Less Expensive Way to Do The Same Job; Saves Taxpayer Dollars".

This is what people voted for. It's a democracy. If people want the more expensive solution which does the same thing, then they'll vote for that instead.

Re:Alternate Headline (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020489)

Except that the cost savings here ... are negate by the millions spent on advertising for programs that don't even exist yet [www.cbc.ca] .

It isn't "less expensive way to do the same job" anyway, it's less expensive for inferior services.

Re:Alternate Headline (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020615)

True, and that's why democracy is no longer a workable form of government. We need democracy 2.0 where the elected country management group can still set policies but overseen by an independent group that makes sure concepts like science, health care, education, culture, utilities and infrastructures are maintained at a high level, no matter the managing group.

Re:Alternate Headline (2)

dryeo (100693) | about 8 months ago | (#46021031)

This government got 37% of the votes (much less when you consider the people who didn't vote) so no, it is not what the people voted for. This government has also squandered the surplus and ran a deficit the whole time they've been in power. Billions spent on advertising how we have the best science and billions given to the bitumen industry. Its got to the point where the oil companies don't really want any more tax credits as they know it looks a lot better if they pay a little tax.

Re:Alternate Headline (1)

CauseBy (3029989) | about 8 months ago | (#46021511)

Fair enough. I'm a big-government tax-and-spend bleeding-heart redistribution-loving socialist liberal, so it's not how I would run the library system, or public science programs; but even more than I'm a socialist liberal, I'm a small-d democrat, and if the winners of the election want to "starve the beast", or shut down libraries, then tough titties for people like me.

I'm also an American. I don't know how Canada runs elections, but here we have plurality winners, so 37% can be enough to win.

Curtin Uni in Australia (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020337)

I was a student at curtin for a while. Whilst I was there they binned some old chemistry reference books than no one had used in a while.
They were a near complete set of chemistry journals from the 1750ish through 1910 ish. These were one of maybe 3 sets in the world, we sent to the tip. Gone forever.
This is why I am keen in the digitization of works copyrighted or otherwise.

last time (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020479)

Last time I went to a library I was questioned, followed, and made to feel very unwelcome. That was before I even made it to the books. Fuck you liberal cock-suckers. You have turned libraries into a brown shirt society. No I won't play your fucking games. No I won't let you record my every movement, book reading, and book checkout for the FBI. Go fuck yourselves and don't give me any, "It was just my job." bullshit.

Not at all what it seems (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 8 months ago | (#46020551)

I think people are not paying attention to what this really is, or reading TFA. There has been a lot of financial issues in Canada and it isn't anything new. Healthcare for one has been a huge burden to Canadians but the majority want to keep it for some strange reason. It's valued as a right, rather than something you have to work for. As a result, many people take advantage of the system, go there every day and if you break your leg, you're stuck in the ER waiting for help for 7 or 8 hours as something similar happened to me back when I lived there. It's a mess and financially it's a burden since the taxes are not high enough to cover it. Canada has been very liberal for a long time but then when you have conservatives hopping into office, they tend to shine a negative light on them regardless on the situation. This is yet another example on how they exploit a story and blame it on the conservative. Libraries are hardly used to begin with and they cost a significant amount to create and maintain. They are expensive, and a huge tax burden. Some may argue that it should be kept so that those without jobs can grow their experience but honestly, how many people actually go through this and succeed as a result? I'm going on a limb by assuming too few to care about. Almost everyone has a computer and the internet is available just about everywhere, even mcdo has wifi. Canada has to work with what they have unlike the US which just likes to spend recklessly on anything it wants without care about a budget. Everything in those libraries are turned into ebooks, so it's not that bad. However what they could have done better is try and sell those books instead but there could be laws against this, I'm not sure.

Re:Not at all what it seems (2)

DahGhostfacedFiddlah (470393) | about 8 months ago | (#46021233)

lot of financial issues in Canada and it isn't anything new
[Citation Needed]

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/intera... [www.cbc.ca]
Canadians had no financial issues until Harper took power. We were on track to pay off the national debt.

Libraries are hardly used to begin
[Citation Needed]

cost a significant amount to create and maintain
[Citation Needed]

They are expensive, and a huge tax burden
[Citation Needed]

Everything in those libraries are turned into ebooks
[Citation definitely Needed]

A warning, not an instruction manual... (3, Insightful)

matbury (3458347) | about 8 months ago | (#46020829)

Looks like "... was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual..." is going to be a new meme. First George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four, now Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451.

Down the memory hole!

OK, I have to say this (0)

froth-bite (2777385) | about 8 months ago | (#46021155)

With regard to deleting libraries, the only positive thing is that we are trying physically or electronically to follow the limits of human memory, and allow ourselves to start fresh from time to time. I go to the public library twice weekly, so don't take this as "born again, live free whatever", but the electronic age has grabbed everything and brought it with us, generations onwards...same music, books, etc from the past. At some point, we maybe (and I'm throwing this out there) deserve the freedom to discover truths about ourselves, in our time, without the uninformed literature of the past. If we can record everything, we need to think about not saving everything, but what the limits on saving should be.
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