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New Leaks Threaten Human Smuggling Talks and Lead To Hack Attacks On Australia

Soulskill posted about a year ago | from the because-why-continue-a-good-thing dept.

Australia 304

cold fjord writes "Indonesia is threatening to cease cooperation with Australia on human smuggling as a result of further Snowden leaks published by the Guardian and other papers over the weekend. The leaks involve reported use of Australian embassies across Asia for signals intelligence as well as reports of intelligence operations by Australia and the U.S. in 2007 at the U.N. climate change conference in Bali. (In 2002 a terrorist attack at the Sari club in Bali killed 240 people, including 88 Australians.) As a result of the revelations, various groups are reportedly taking revenge, including claimed or alleged involvement of the Java Cyber Army, members of Anonymous in Indonesia, and possibly other hacker groups. They are attacking hundreds of Australian websites. Among the reported victims are Queensland hospital, a children's cancer association an anti-slavery charity, and many more."

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Did dirty work for dirty people... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340227)

And now you're getting dirty. Go figure.

Not the leaks (5, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | about a year ago | (#45340241)

It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340265)

"But everyone does it!!"

-cold fjord justifying any action of the US Government's surveillance programs

Re:Not the leaks (1)

_merlin (160982) | about a year ago | (#45340431)

That's funny, he actually does try to justify it a few posts down. You beat him to it in fewer words.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about a year ago | (#45340511)

>"But everyone does it!!"

I don't.

Indiustrial Espionage contributes to smuggling (5, Informative)

FriendlyLurker (50431) | about a year ago | (#45340681)

Lets also be clear what "human smuggling" means in this context: Illegal immigration. Indonesians (and others) trying to enter into Australia illegally by any means possible in search of a better life. The Snowden leaks have exposed how the spy apparatus is being used for industrial espionage [startpage.com] . This includes and is not limited to being used to maintain political favor with corrupt Indonesian officials in order to maintain cheap access to resources by Australian and other foreign companies. There are already a few previous examples [c-r.org] of such immoral exploitation [us-uk-interventions.org] to the detriment of the poorest classes [johnpilger.com] in this region. Running the spy network being for economic advantage in the region only helps guarantee that people will be forced to immigrate illegally to find a better life.

Re:Indiustrial Espionage contributes to smuggling (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340745)

Lets also be clear what "human smuggling" means in this context: Illegal immigration. Indonesians (and others) trying to enter into Australia illegally by any means possible in search of a better life. The Snowden leaks have exposed how the spy apparatus is being used for industrial espionage [startpage.com] . This includes and is not limited to being used to maintain political favor with corrupt Indonesian officials in order to maintain cheap access to resources by Australian and other foreign companies. There are already a few previous examples [c-r.org] of such immoral exploitation [us-uk-interventions.org] to the detriment of the poorest classes [johnpilger.com] in this region. Running the spy network being for economic advantage in the region only helps guarantee that people will be forced to immigrate illegally to find a better life.

As usual Cold Fjord propaganda story tries to turn this all around to be the complete opposite...

Re:Indiustrial Espionage contributes to smuggling (2)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340757)

When you can't disprove what someone says you simply assassinate their character by lumping them in with pedophiles, terrorists, smugglers, etc. and claim that the discredited person is providing them aid.

Re:Indiustrial Espionage contributes to smuggling (4, Informative)

tdelaney (458893) | about a year ago | (#45341083)

It is *not* illegal to enter Australia via any means to seek asylum, despite what so many of our politicians say. There are zero "illegal asylum seekers".

Asylum seekers may well perform illegal acts or use illegal services to get to Australia, but the actual act of coming to Australia to seek asylum is not illegal, whether they come by boat, plane or walk across the ocean floor.

They may be determined not to be asylum seekers, in which case their continued residence in Australia may be determined to be illegal, but that is separate from the act of coming to Australia to seek asylum.

Re:Not the leaks (5, Insightful)

intermodal (534361) | about a year ago | (#45340287)

It's the clear strategy of the governments involved to blame the leaks for causing the problems. Failure to give the government a pass on the grounds that it "should have remained secret" makes you a terrorist.

Re:Not the leaks (2)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340317)

And they have plenty of mouthpieces and jingoists to spread such misinformation and propaganda. People like cold fjord are the real traitors of the people not Snowden.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340341)

Who is "cold fjord"?

Re:Not the leaks (3, Informative)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340365)

The person who submitted this propaganda piece.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340427)

Oh, never read who submitted. But I noted an propaganda oddity in the middle of the submission, the out of context mention of the bali bombing. I guess he tried to explain away why the mass surveillance, but haven't Australia been the fifth eye since the 40-50s?

Re:Not the leaks (2)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340455)

Not to mention his silly "think of the children!!" part at the end.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340507)

I'm so accustomed to this that I didn't even register that except nothing that the targets seems to be organization that are easy targets because they do not afford high value protection.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340857)

A professional astroturfer paid by the NSA.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

cream wobbly (1102689) | about a year ago | (#45340303)

It's not the espionage that threatens these talks. It's the people attacking the talks.

Next!

Re:Not the leaks (-1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about a year ago | (#45340315)

No, it's clearly the new of the leaks that did it. Last week there wasn't a diplomatic crisis, then the leaks came, and now there is a diplomatic crisis.

Quiet diplomacy is only possible when confidentiality is possible.

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

Re:Not the leaks (5, Insightful)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340359)

No, it's clearly the new of the leaks that did it. Last week there wasn't a diplomatic crisis, then the leaks came, and now there is a diplomatic crisis.

Quiet diplomacy is only possible when confidentiality is possible.

This just in: mass surveillance of your "allies" pisses them off!

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

Hahaha! Good old cold fjord. Yeah, it wasn't the fault of the people doing the spying it was Snowden's!! Yeah just like it was the fault of the woman being raped because she wasn't dressed in a burqa not that of the rapist, right?

Re:Not the leaks (3, Insightful)

s.petry (762400) | about a year ago | (#45340371)

False dilemma trying to appeal to the emotions. Care to try again without the fallacies?

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340629)

that's not a false dilemma - which is pitting one conclusion against another, as if they were mutually exclusive and together exhaust all possibilities.

Appeal to emotions is the fallacy you want here.

So: False Dilemma is one fallacy; Appeal To Emotions is another fallacy.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

s.petry (762400) | about a year ago | (#45340971)

Compound fallacies are allowed and not uncommon in propaganda war. What the poster stated was exactly a compound fallacy. If they would have said "child sex trafficking" it would have been more obvious, but the human trafficking due to the leak is the same thing (just less obvious).

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340709)

Human people have emotions! You appeal to...

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340381)

LOL
LOOOOLLL

I live in Australia; and I can tell you, these "people smuggling talks" would have done nothing to stop the people smuggling in the first place.

There are poor as fuck people who want to come to Australia. There are people who have fled [insert civil war here] with buttfuck all who want to come to Australia. Turns out, you try to get on a boat to come to Australia no matter fucking what.

The period where there were no "refugees" under howard, was a lie. There was just a bunch of sunk boats, or boats so shit they turned around themselves. (I think there was documented evidence of about 5 boats during the "no boats" period). No I am not going to provide you links, if you gave half a shit you would google it yourself. You don't so don't pay lip service to thinking you do by asking for links. (Protip: I found them by googling "Did Howard stop the boats") The answer is "during Howards years there were less boats" (not no boats).

Re:Not the leaks (4, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | about a year ago | (#45340401)

No, it's clearly the new of the leaks that did it. Last week there wasn't a diplomatic crisis, then the leaks came, and now there is a diplomatic crisis.

Yes, and when your wife finds out that you're cheating on her, it's not your fault for cheating but her fault for finding out. Do you really not see anything wrong with that reasoning?

Quiet diplomacy is only possible when confidentiality is possible.

Trust, but verify.

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

No, blame falls entirely on the bad behavior of the Australian Signals Directorate and their lack of trustworthyness.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340607)

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

No, blame falls entirely on the bad behavior of the Australian Signals Directorate and their lack of trustworthyness.

You're both wrong. The people to blame for human trafficking are the human traffickers.

Re:Not the leaks (2, Interesting)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about a year ago | (#45341129)

You're both wrong. The people to blame for human trafficking are the human traffickers.

The human traffickers are just providing a service for a fee. The real blame should go to legislatures that criminalize the free movement of people.

Re:Not the leaks (4, Insightful)

Unordained (262962) | about a year ago | (#45340639)

No, blame falls entirely on the bad behavior of the Australian Signals Directorate and their lack of trustworthyness.

I don't think we should blame the intelligence agencies for this. You don't install sophisticated interception equipment hidden in architectural features of embassies all over the region, and operate them possibly for decades, without a fair amount of cooperation between branches of the government. The intelligence services did what they were told to do, and in that respect, were plenty trustworthy.

Back home, we can't really argue that the NSA was out-of-bounds. We elected officials, they passed laws, they appointed secret judges, they signed secret executive orders, and the agencies did everything within their power to gather intelligence that would help us or protect us. Citizens allowed this to happen (in theory -- assumes civilians are in-the-know), and I see the logic that would lead someone to try to get civilian attention with vandalism on charities and whatnot.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340421)

Don't shoot the messenger It's the fucking moronic lunatics that were spying on their allies and allowing their contractors access to all the information.

Blame the dumbest country in the universe, the one that gives hundreds of thousands of people full access to super secret information. And act all butt-hurt when someone leaks it.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340471)

So if steal something and someone denounces me, that person is clearly the one that should be blamed according to your logic.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

intermodal (534361) | about a year ago | (#45340645)

Quiet diplomacy does not mean "the government does whatever the hell they want, legal or not, and gets a pass".

I think it's funny that the government thinks it's OK to take our information, but when we get to see their information, they cry like a five year old with a skinned knee.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340701)

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

Much worse than that, Slashdot readers are subjected to your lame attempts at propaganda on a regular basis.

Mod parent up, not down! (1)

sethstorm (512897) | about a year ago | (#45340785)

Who would benefit from the lack of a Western presence in Indonesia to counter human trafficking (and the terrorism that comes with it)? It wouldn't be ordinary Australian, Indonesian, or American citizens, but would be human traffickers and terrorists that benefit from a lack of oversight. By asking the question "cui bono?", Snowden's disclosure can be proven to be harmful to ordinary people - in at least this case.

Re:Mod parent up, not down! (3, Informative)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340815)

No, what caused harm was the act that was committed not that it was exposed. Stop being an asshat. There would have been no harm at all if the spying had not been done in the first place.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340869)

No, it's clearly the new of the leaks that did it. Last week there wasn't a diplomatic crisis, then the leaks came, and now there is a diplomatic crisis.

Quiet diplomacy is only possible when confidentiality is possible.

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

It's not really a crisis. Australia and Indonesia are just developing their relationship.
Sort of like when the girl you have been seeing, moves in. You need to set the ground rules.
To see who is going to control the relationship.

The leaks that cause the increase in tension come more from Abbott's mouth rather than from Snowden
(if only Peter Costello had stuck around :(, it would have made such good headlines (The Abbott and Costello Show))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_and_Costello

During the election campaign the current the Aust Govt was talking about using Aust Warship to tow back the boats.
As well as sending operatives into Indonesia to buy boats etc...
For some reason they thought the Indonesians wouldn't mind uninvited foreign warships in their waters and foreign agents on their soil.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45341035)

It's clearly not the raping of the coma patient that was the problem, it's the waking up of the patient.

Dumbass.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

10101001 10101001 (732688) | about a year ago | (#45341133)

No, it's clearly the new of the leaks that did it. Last week there wasn't a diplomatic crisis, then the leaks came, and now there is a diplomatic crisis.

You're absolutely right! It's not that the rapist, in his actions, ruined his life when he was brought to justice. It's all that damn eye-witness' fault! Oh, yea, and damn the justice system*!

Quiet diplomacy is only possible when confidentiality is possible.

And one side is entirely violating that confidentially with mass surveillance. Oh, right, oops. That's the issue at hand.

There will probably be more human smuggling and trafficking due to Snowden.

I think, in the biz, they call that "blow back". I guess mass surveillance *did* have an effect.

*In truth, as fucked up as Indonesia's response to the mass surveillance is, it's clear that to some extent they're doing it because part and parcel of dealing with Australia carries a now very clear risk. In the end, Australia now has to work to regain the trust it has lost from its acts. I still say it's wrong for Indonesia to react the way it has because human smuggling/trafficing is more important than that, but to that end it'd be more a point of Indonesia being better positioned to make reasonable (and possible a few unreasonable) demands to further guarantee that that's all that's happening. Sadly, I can only imagine a tit-for-tat from individuals even if Indonesia doesn't pursue activities beyond these goals.

In any case, Australia is the one who shot their own foot.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45341137)

Your handle's tainted man. Once upon a time you provided reasonable rational arguments and kept things in context. Then you got carried away and now everyone calls you out the moment you pop up.

Re:Not the leaks (4, Insightful)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about a year ago | (#45340329)

It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

No shit; I mean, what kind of jingoist, fascist asshole blames the guy who risked his ass to bring the evil deeds of clandestine criminal groups into the sunlight?

*looks at submitter name in summary*

Ah, that kind.

Re:Not the leaks (-1, Troll)

cold fjord (826450) | about a year ago | (#45340425)

I mean, what kind of jingoist, fascist asshole blames the guy who risked his ass to bring the evil deeds of clandestine criminal groups into the sunlight?

So you disagree with my stand opposing human smuggling and trafficking, the hacking of hospitals, anti-slavery charities, and other NGOs, not to mention opposing the killing by the hundreds of innocent tourists having a nice vacation?

Figures.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340469)

False dillema is false. One can be against both the retaliation attacks and the spying at the same time.

Re:Not the leaks (4, Insightful)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about a year ago | (#45340535)

I mean, what kind of jingoist, fascist asshole blames the guy who risked his ass to bring the evil deeds of clandestine criminal groups into the sunlight?

So you disagree with my stand opposing human smuggling and trafficking, the hacking of hospitals, anti-slavery charities, and other NGOs, not to mention opposing the killing by the hundreds of innocent tourists having a nice vacation?

That weak attempt to discredit someone by claiming they support policies that no rational person would ever support is the best response you can come up with? Shit, I know middle-schoolers with better game.

And FTR, no, I disagree with your insistence to suck fed cock by laying the blame for their crimes one the one dude who had the fucking hojo's to call them out on it. A point which is likely glaringly obvious to everyone on the planet other than you.

Re:Not the leaks (3, Insightful)

Hatta (162192) | about a year ago | (#45340551)

Your stand encourages human smuggling and trafficking. The less we know about espionage, the more of it will happen. The more espionage that happens, the less international cooperation there will be. The less international cooperation there is, the more human smuggling and trafficking there will be.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340603)

Clearly you have a stand against humane treatment of refugees.
All they want to do is immigrate to Australia. You support their being forced to stay in Indonesia with no right to work or education for an indefinite period.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340881)

You oppose anti slavery charities. Of course I disagree with your stance on that.

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340409)

Shhhhh, don't tell anyone. See it's just like murdering someone, if no one ever finds the body there wasn't any crime!

Re:Not the leaks (1)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340443)

"It wasn't his fault that he raped her. That slut wasn't wearing her burqa that day and he just couldn't help himself."

-cd fjord's logic applied to rape cases

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340435)

You are a fucking idiot and a horrible person.

Re:Not the leaks (2)

s.petry (762400) | about a year ago | (#45340437)

It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

I think the more shocking aspect is how much collusion there is with the espionage, not the espionage itself. It's as if there is no separation between the US, UK, Australia, Italy, and Germany intelligence agencies.

People have been telling about a group trying to create a new world government right under your noses. Not just those "wacky" people like Alex Jones and Gary Allen, but Presidents Kennedy and Eisenhower said the same thing. If you look at the collusion here suddenly all those "wacko conspiracy people" are not so wacko.

Re:Not the leaks (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#45340683)

the more shocking aspect is how much collusion there is with the espionage, not the espionage itself. It's as if there is no separation between the US, UK, Australia, Italy, and Germany intelligence agencies.

WWII, Cold War, NATO, ANZUS, etc. ECHELON [wikipedia.org] was built in the early 60's, and public knowledge by the late 80's.

People have been telling about a group trying to create a new world government right under your noses ... Presidents Kennedy and Eisenhower said the same thing.

Cite or quotation?

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340591)

You're clearly not looking at this from the perspective of a boot licking coward (cold_fjord).

Re:Not the leaks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340635)

"We would have gotten away with it if it weren't for that meddling Snowden!!"

Re: Not the leaks (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340685)

The talks aren't really threatened. All that happened is someone pointed out that the emperor wasn't wearing clothes, now everyone gets to act aghast for all of 5 minutes and then we'll return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Re:Not the leaks (2)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#45340853)

It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

The "threat" is that these talks will be delayed by a month, while the diplomats put on their "we're so outraged" show, and a few script kiddies hit Australia. These revelations are about as surprising as finding out that the sun rises in the east. It's become comical. Brazil express outrage, oops, Brazil is doing it too (and it's hardly limited to Brazil). The diplomatic protests are just kabuki.

What outrages me is the domestic spying, including loopholes like comm between two US parties being routed outside the country, or country A spying on the citizens of country B, then reporting it to B (but A did no domestic surveillance!). I don't give a damn about Angela Merkel's privacy, or the head of any other country. I do care about the privacy of the average American, and think citizens of other countries should be concerned about their privacy, especially from their own government.

I'm curious why Snowden is doing this now. The domestic revelations were very important, and I thank him for them. These foreign revelations are another story. I doubt they do any harm, or at least no more than finding out that the sun rises in the east. But why? Does he think these are a big deal? Does he just want revenge? Or (one to be hoped for) he just wants to keep making noise about the NSA until something is done about the domestic situation. Inquiring minds want to know.

Re:Not the leaks (2)

im_thatoneguy (819432) | about a year ago | (#45341049)

It's not the leaks that threaten these talks. It's the espionage that threatens the talks.

Actually NEITHER threaten the talks. Indonesia should be interested in their citizens not being enslaved even if the person offering to help them spied of them.

It's like refusing the fire fighter's help while your house is on fire because you don't like the current mayor. You're mostly just spiting yourself.

As to indignation. They can give us a break. Every country spies on pretty much every other country. If Indonesia's intelligence agency isn't spying on Australia... it's not for lack of effort I'm sure.

Re:Not the leaks (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45341187)

As far as I can tell, no religious supremicist organisations in Australia had publicly threatened to kill visiting Indonesians. If they did, Australia's government would "spy" on them for the Indonesians. Indonesia's Islamo-fascist citizens threaten to kill Australians and Australia wants to know if their threats are going to be followed through. Also they want to know If they are sponsored by elements of the Indonesian government. The espionage is justified.

Because every general and his aide in Indonesia skims off the top of the asylum seeker trade they just want an excuse to keep it going. Who cares who drowns after their leaky boat is set on fire in the middle of the ocean.

LOL (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340251)

More US government propaganda and FUD brought to you by cold fjord. Hope they pay you well to be such a whore.

Re:LOL (1)

intermodal (534361) | about a year ago | (#45340309)

The attention is all the pay he ever wanted.

Anonymous - always first with the reaction (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340261)

Quick Anonymous! Attack things! Anything! If it's Australian, it's a target.
It's got nothing to do with the Australian government or intelligence services? Bah, details.

Re:Anonymous - always first with the reaction (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340335)

Well, all those Australians look alike to me. They are all the same, right? (At least they all talk funny....)

Re:Anonymous - always first with the reaction (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | about a year ago | (#45340397)

Hey, give Anonymous some credit here! At least they're going after Canberra this time and not Vienna!

Re:Anonymous - always first with the reaction (1)

Kalriath (849904) | about a year ago | (#45340919)

Queensland isn't Canberra. Frankly I'm surprised they didn't miss and hit New Zealand with accuracy like that.

Headline fail. (4, Insightful)

girlintraining (1395911) | about a year ago | (#45340321)

"Indonesia is threatening to cease cooperation with Australia on human smuggling as a result of further Snowden leaks

... Soo, Indonesia was previously helping Australia with their human smuggling operation? In either event, what does having your corrupt officials mismanaging things have to do with ceasing humanitarian endeavors? This is like saying "After we got busted doing evil things, we're going to just go all in on that whole evil thing, while insisting that you spying on us doing our evil things is wrong and you should stop."

Re:Headline fail. (5, Insightful)

sd4f (1891894) | about a year ago | (#45340479)

That's basically why Indonesia isn't liking what's happening. The people smuggling trade brings a lot of money into Indonesia; buying boats, bribing police and officials. Cutting it off is going to annoy quite a lot of people.

Re:Headline fail. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340549)

You need to understand that this is the single most effective stick they have to use against Australia, which is mostly Australia's fault. The newly elected Australian government won a significant number of votes by pandering to racists and xenophobes and managed to seriously offend the Indonesian government in the process.

It also doesn't help that the newly elected Australian government has announced all sorts of plans pandering to racists' fears of "illegal" asylum seekers that would mean cutting humanitarian programs to asian countries.

Who would have thought that both countries bumbling leaders would slowly make the situation worse?

Re:Headline fail. (1)

Neo-Rio-101 (700494) | about a year ago | (#45340805)

Exactly how did they offend them? Australia tells Indonesia that we will be turning Indonesian boats carrying illegal immigrants back out of Australian waters, and we're doing it to protect our sovereignty. What does Indonesia complain about? It complains that by doing this we interfere with THEIR sovereignty! How exactly? Give me a break! Indonesia can like it or lump it, but Australia is part of the commonwealth and part of ANZUS. While they were gaining their much vaunted Independance, we watched as the US helped prevent the Japanese from invading Australia. We rely on our security from our western allies which basically means that we're going to follow the lead of the USA. Indonesia certainly isn't guarding our security. They just don't have our back. They spy on us too. Have a guess which country's embassy got hit with a bomb blast within the last 20 years. Was it the Indonesian embassy in Australia, or the Australian embassy in Indonesia?

Re:Headline fail. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340997)

So... the things Australia is complaining about regarding sovereignty are the things Indonesia is complaining about too? Color me surprised! Are Australians so jingoistic that they think they're the only ones who are allowed to complain? Same with the spying. "But they do it too!" doesn't cut it when you're in the middle of a beaten up political mess. The perception of Australians are inherently racist is going to grow more than any impression of indonesians as being inherently corrupt.

There was also some sort of plan to buy boats from indonesians? I remember reading some "not The Onion" discussion about that on an economics forum. Googling suggests that's been swept under the rug now so perhaps some other bits of sanity might prevail. Still pretty offensive to go around making plans like that at the cost of humanitarian funding without first mentioning it to the other governments involved.

Also you're saying immigrants when it seems like it's mostly refugees from the stats. Illegal immigrants can already be deported. Refugees aren't the same as illegal immigrants. It doesn't even look like Australia's intake is particularly high.

Re:Headline fail. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45341039)

Indonesia can like it or lump it

That attitude might have something to do with it.

'Human Smuggling' (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340357)

It should be noted that 'people smuggling' isn't related to slavery; it's the politicised term for the people who help refugees get to Autralia. The efforts to stop people smugglers are about the current Australian government's (xenophobic) anti-refugee policies; they're the result of domestic politics, not a cooperative effort to stop human trafficking.

Re:'Human Smuggling' (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340611)

Uh, I don't think so. Human "smuggling" aka human trafficking is directly related to slavery/debt servitude of the victims. That's what the 2007 Australia-Indonesia Partnership to Combat Human Trafficking was created to curb by fostering cooperation between Australia's and Indonesia's law enforcement, immigration, an other relevant governmental agencies.

Politics, not Snowden, and "human smuggling" (2)

tlambert (566799) | about a year ago | (#45340671)

It should be noted that 'people smuggling' isn't related to slavery; it's the politicised term for the people who help refugees get to Autralia. The efforts to stop people smugglers are about the current Australian government's (xenophobic) anti-refugee policies; they're the result of domestic politics, not a cooperative effort to stop human trafficking.

It's not actually xenophobia when you attempt to enforce your national borders.

The situation between Indonesia and Australia is similar to the situation between Mexico and the U.S., where the Mexican government in some cases actually busses illegals to the U.S. border in order to aid their illegal immigartion into the U.S.. While most illegals are economic refugees, the bussing mostly involved "undesirables" in Mexico, which included Mexican criminals, but more frequently were refugees from Guatamala and El Salvador, which Mexico preferred to make "not their problem". PBS did a documentary on this a while back:

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/beyondtheborder/immigration.html [pbs.org]

The "cooperation" being negotiated in this case is primarily dealing with people using Indonesia as a transit point, and less so export of Indonesian "bad apples", just as with the U.S. (although Indonesia will happily export locally grown Al Qaeda to get rid of them). A significant number of these come from the Middle East, including a large portion of them from Iraq, and to a lesser extent, Lebanon. Here are some examples:

http://www.niqash.org/articles/?id=3308 [niqash.org]
http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920705000600 [farsnews.com]

One of the agreements being negotiated has been buying unused boats which could be made sufficiently seaworthy to get from Indonesia to Australia:

http://qz.com/118198/australias-election-frontrunner-thinks-buying-broken-indonesian-boats-will-stave-off-asylum-seekers/ [qz.com] ...but it benefits Tony Abbot's opponents to find ways to undermine that plan as much as possible, and it benefits Indonesian politicians to be complicit in that, and seize on any excuse, lest the illegal immigrant refugees end up stuck in Indonesia instead (Indonesia doesn't want them either). So at this point, it's largely an argument between the mostly empty regions of Australia and the more densely populated regions (analogous to the red state/blue state U.S. division that had Arizona enforcing immigration laws that the U.S. federal government would not).

So basically, politics, not Snowden.

Re:'Human Smuggling' (1)

nukenerd (172703) | about a year ago | (#45340855)

AC wrote :-

'people smuggling' isn't related to slavery; it's the politicised term for the people who help refugees get to Autralia. [It's] about the current Australian government's (xenophobic) anti-refugee policies

Cryst, you are naive.

Human trafficking is mostly about gullible girls being promised good jobs in more prosperous countries but actually being forced into prostitution. They may well be told to claim to be refugees, as also do adventurers who know that this is an almost sure passport to anywhere they want to go, thanks to the existence of so many gullible people like you who believe the bullshit.

Link [humantrafficking.org]

Why the Indonesian government should be content to see so much of their best womanhood draining away like this is beyond me.

Re:'Human Smuggling' (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#45340927)

Human trafficking and human smuggling are two different things. By definition, the latter is about people who want to go, and who are not being tricked into prostitution or something. Along the US-Mexican border the human smugglers are called coyotes. It's a standard service that's available.

What day is it today? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340361)

Anonymous is quite busy celebrating Guy Fawkes' Day.

Re:What day is it today? (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about a year ago | (#45340573)

>Guy Fawkes' Day.

You mean 'Bonfire Night'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonfire_Night [wikipedia.org]

Re:What day is it today? (1)

nukenerd (172703) | about a year ago | (#45340909)

Read your own reference. As it is Nov 5th, it is "Guy Fawkes Night" in the UK, the traditional term for it.

I notice that the UK media tends to refer to it as "Bonfire Night". That is merely for political correctness, because historically it was an anti-Catholic night. Guy Fawkes was part of a Catholic plot to assassinate King James I, and it is his effigy- the "Guy" - that is burned on the bonfire.

Re:What day is it today? (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about a year ago | (#45341055)

As I remember from spending the first 30 years of my life living in Britain, it was, and still is called Bonfire Night by British people in Britain. The Guy Fawkes thing is British history and anti-Catholicism has pretty much nothing to do with the sentiment of the occasion across the whole of Britain, excepting some communities in Northern Ireland, where the Protestant/Catholic thing is still an issue.

As with every other country, there is a day where people let fireworks off and set fire to things. In the USA it is July 4th. In the UK it is Nov 5th. For anyone who had their childhood in Britain, Bonfire night is associated with home made toffee, parkin, setting bonfires, lighting fireworks and waving sparklers around. The historical aspects are encoded in tradition, not sectarian hate. The Guy on top of the bonfire is there because that's what people do. A bonfire is incomplete without a Guy. Inertia is a strong force.

The history bit is addressed in schools. Burning the Guy was an appeal to political correctness specifically because the anti Catholicism of burning a pope's effigy no longer fit in with the dynamic between protestants and Catholics which stopped being a thing a long time ago. They stopped burning effigies of the pope a long time ago. So Guy got to fill in the role, even though he was hung, drawn and quartered.

Cut to the chase (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340385)

Every country is spying on every other country, and on every citizen of the world.

Between Snowden and Manning, the whole thing is like a giant breech of etiquette. Everybody knew the prime minister had a wart on his face. They just never winced and said, "ewwww, look at that ugly thing".

Oh, wait, that's the OTHER Java (1)

MikeTheGreat (34142) | about a year ago | (#45340419)

"Java Cyber Army"? Really? Shouldn't they use the best tools for the job and not restrict themselves to just Java? I mean, Java's cool and all, what with write-once-run-anywhere and the nifty Spring Framework, but-

-Wait, you mean the other Java, don't you.

Yeah, ok, that makes more sense. :)

Re:Oh, wait, that's the OTHER Java (1)

JaredOfEuropa (526365) | about a year ago | (#45340725)

It's Java, west of Krakatoa.

Re:Oh, wait, that's the OTHER Java (1)

MikeTheGreat (34142) | about a year ago | (#45340969)

Yes, that's what I was getting at. :)

Re:Oh, wait, that's the OTHER Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45341003)

Why does Java even have a cyber army? Are there actually cyber attacks against the coffee plantations?

Scary headline is disingenuous (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340485)

From TFA:

When he was questioned about what action Indonesia would take against Australia, the foreign minister [Dr. Marty Natalegawa] said: “One of them obviously is the agreement to exchange information, exchange even intelligence information, in fact, to address the issue of people smuggling."

Basically, Indonesia is leveraging the disclosures to force Australia to agree to exchange intelligence information to address the problem of human trafficking. Nowhere in the TFA says that Indonesia is going to cancel the talks with Australia over this. Australia broke the trust, its up to them to fix it.

Re:Scary headline is disingenuous (1)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340505)

You think cold fjord was trying to actually give accurate info?

The bad guy (1)

XMark3 (2979399) | about a year ago | (#45340527)

This certainly sounds like an attempt to go "Hey! You! Undecided people! Snowden is totally the bad guy because of this! Ignore the other stuff!" Of course, nothing in the real world is ever as simple as (person X) is the bad guy and (person Y) is the hero, but we need a narrative. We need to stick people into archetypal categories with heroes and villains, and episodes/chapters with clear resolutions and unambiguous morals.

Re:The bad guy (1)

Desler (1608317) | about a year ago | (#45340543)

When you can't dispute what the person is saying the tried-and-true strategy is to simply use character assassination instead.

Smash the Australian internet (2)

Neo-Rio-101 (700494) | about a year ago | (#45340569)

The Java cyber army promised to smash the Australian internet. I doubt they would have to try too hard. It's already pretty terrible!

Re:Smash the Australian internet (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340727)

They are defacing some websites. Child's play. And like a child acting out, they will be punished.

Re:Smash the Australian internet (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#45340741)

Consider it a stress test. Maybe Australia should even pay them for it.

Indonesia doesn't have any negotiating position. (0)

sethstorm (512897) | about a year ago | (#45340691)

Given how much terrorism already goes through that part of the world, Snowden's actions only made things worse. This is a clear case where he is shown to desire to cause harm instead of benefit. There is no heroic position in providing information that *will* help terrorists.

If anything, it means that Australia (and by extension, the US) has(have) a new justification for military action in that part of the country - should Indonesia wish to side with interests hostile with the West. Realistically, Indonesia is probably not going to do anything adverse against Australia beyond saber rattling - they need Australia more than Australia needs Indonesia.

 

Re:Indonesia doesn't have any negotiating position (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340863)

The only terrorists are the governments.

We lost a mere few thousand people and we have an all out war on 'terrorism'. In the process we killed off what we were supposedly fighting for... FREEDOM!

As bas as things are I'd support a dictator over a democracy provided my freedoms were respected.

Yea- it's a f'd up idea although it can't be much worse than the way democratic systems work.

Letting the masses vote doesn't work. Having a free media doesn't really work either. Neither of these things have preserved my freedom. They have only eroded it.

Re:Indonesia doesn't have any negotiating position (1)

ebno-10db (1459097) | about a year ago | (#45340885)

There is no heroic position in providing information that *will* help terrorists.

Any terrorist who was too dumb to realize that this sort of spying was probably going on, is too dumb to worry about.

Re:Indonesia doesn't have any negotiating position (1)

erroneus (253617) | about a year ago | (#45340983)

Yes. The people who are ACTUALLY doing the dirty deeds are not responsible. The guy with the flashlight showing the world the truth is the real problem. Taking sides in an issue is not justification for military action. If you believe that then you must also believe that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor is justified because the US was providing weapons to France which was affecting Japan's campaign during WW2 prior to the US's direct involvement. Please don't tell me those are two very different things. They aren't except for which side you are apparently on.

Attacking websites... yeah right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340753)

I'd say that a clarification needs to be made here. From a cursory investigation, via cached repositories, it seems this should be defined as EXPLOITING websites.

WordPress 3.1.... Joomla 1.5... 2 minutes of work for a twelve year old. Well done Anon Indonesia.. what technical prowess you display.

Hopefully a wake up call to all those with a web pressence that utilise a CMS to understand that it is an ASSET and as such needs maintenance and TLC in order for it to retain it's value and relevance.

Re signals intelligence interceptions... just a different means to the same ends that the powers to be use to retain power. Not that I agree, but why is this a suprise, an outrage?

Perhaps the GenY of Anon Indonesia should look into the acts of their own past governments in the annexation of Timor Leste and the complicity of the USA & Australian governments... this points to much broader reasons to maintain the rage. John Pilger's Death of a Nation is a good place to start - http://johnpilger.com/videos/death-of-a-nation-the-timor-conspiracy

Crime doesn't pay (1)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | about a year ago | (#45340861)

Except when it extorts things to stop a crackdown on illegal acts.

Snowden is still a patriot, but Freedom is never free.

If you don't understand that, realize it's 1984 right now.

And you're all Serfs.

Well one problem almost solved (1)

erroneus (253617) | about a year ago | (#45340883)

Here in the US, we've been watching our constitutional freedoms infringed increasingly. I don't like to say "eroded" or "removed" because the constitution doesn't guarantee our freedoms so much as it prohibits the government from infringing on them. So let's always keep in mind what the constitution was written to do. Our freedoms are declared and government is limited. They are breaking the constitution. That's the short of it. And at the moment, we're not seeing anything suggesting they are going to stop. That's one problem that's not getting solved yet.

But one that the whole world should be concerned about is what the US and others have been doing to the world lately. Thanks not to Snowden (because there are many other whistle blowers telling us the same things) but to the US government itself and all of the attention to the issue it has inexplicably drawn to itself and its activities. If there wasn't such an uproar from government charging him with high crimes, Showden and his trickle of information would be forgotten and complicit nations wouldn't have to pretend to be outraged.

Well thanks to all of this, the world is seeing what has been going on and the US and many, many US companies and allied nations of the US are all "toxic." Already whole nations are seeking to route around the damaged networks tainted by the US, its allies and business partners. We're seeing polarization of other nations which are resulting in their distancing themselves from the US and its allies. For that matter, the US allies are distancing themselves from the US.

So the world's problems with the US and its allies are being solved. The middle east can no longer rely on the US to fight for Israel's or Saudi Arabia's interests under ridiculous pretexts. And without the US banking system dragging the world down with its endless watering down of the currency, the rest of the world stands a better chance at a faster financial recovery. So all that is good.

That just leaves us poor Americans in Soviet Amerika... Please have pity on us and prepare to receive refugees from this former first-world leader? It's going to be a much longer and more difficult road to recovery for the US.

sNOwden MUST BE STOPPED (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#45340905)

If peace between the major superpowers on planet earth hung in the balance, this asshole would not give a rat's ass and would leak everything he has to see the destruction he seeks come to pass. He has to be rounded up and stopped. Anyone complicit and carrying out his will to leak damaging or dangerous top secret data should be stopped immediately.

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