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Debugging Indian Computer Programmers

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the alle-menschen-sind-auslaender-fast-ueberall dept.

Books 1248

The H1-B visa program allows many thousands of non-American technical workers (about half a million at the moment) to hold jobs in Silicon Valley and elsewhere in the U.S. -- jobs which are seemingly difficult to fill from the American labor pool for a variety of reasons, and which are eagerly filled by employers who find that qualified, talented people come from countries all over the world. N. Sivakumar's first-person account of being an Indian programmer working for companies in several U.S. states over the past decade illustrates a side of the H1-B system that doesn't get talked about much: the experience of skilled, highly educated workers taking jobs in an environment that offers, besides welcome employment, various levels of hostility and resentment. Read on for my review of his book, Debugging Indian Computer Programmers: Dude, Did I Steal Your Job?

Life as an immigrant programmer is full of culture shocks both minor and major (would you know the first time around how to dress when flying from Bombay to Pittsburgh via Los Angeles, in winter?), and much of the book is devoted to outlining some of the shocks that Indian programmers face, even in immigrant-happy America. Buying a car to rely on for daily transport -- on American highways, no less -- is just one of the things many programmers like Sivakumar have to face shortly after arriving; he explains that one of the reasons certain makes of car (chiefly Japanese) are popular among newly arrived H1-B workers is that their expected resale value is high. When your employment is at the mercy of a short-term visa, and the cooperation of a sponsoring company, similar logic informs all kinds of decisions.

The "Did I steal your job?" in the title is the real question raised by this book: Sivakumar rallies evidence that the answer is a resounding No. Despite the vitriol raised by H1-B visa holders (and the H1-B program itself), he argues that the immigrant workers drawing ire from many Americans (who see the immigrants as encroaching unfairly on "their" jobs) not only contribute real money -- billions of dollars -- to the U.S. economy, but are one of the reasons that the U.S. high-tech industry is as successful as it is and has been.

He asks pointedly "[W]hy do some modern Americans (of course, a small percentage) want only those immigrant programmers and IT workers who came during recent times to go back home, yet tend to forget that their parents or grandparents were immigrants too?"

Sivakumar's argument has three pillars. First, that high-tech immigrants (including H1-B holders) are one of the key ingredients in the continuing success of many American companies. These aren't foreign workers who simply happen to land jobs in the U.S.; each H1-B visa holder has at least 16 years (often more) of formal education, and an American company sponsoring his or her application. (That education usually comes "free" to U.S. taxpayers, he notes, not at the expense of public school budgets or student loan subsidies.) Sivakumar contrasts both the generous immigrant policies and world-leading software industry of the U.S. with the policies and software industries of Europe, which tend to be more restrictive and less successful, respectively.

The second part of his argument is that H1-B immigrants, though motivated by a desire to improve their own lives, end up contributing disproportionately to the U.S. economy -- something Americans should be happy about, not resentful. Indian programmers in particular end up spending much of their salary on necessary (and less necessary) material goods both for their personal use and as socially obligated gifts to family members, increasing the retail take of U.S. companies from AT&T to the local car dealer.

More significantly, H1-B workers, as legal immigrants to the U.S., have the dubious privilege of paying the same taxes as other Americans (and more than most), with a far smaller chance of reaping their benefits. Most are single, and send no children to the U.S. schools they help underwrite, and most will never collect on the Social Security system or medical-care systems their payroll taxes help prop up.

Third, Sivakumar points out that Indian immigrants are often among the inventive and entrepreneurial class which provides jobs in the first place, citing -- besides a litany of Indian company founders and inventors -- a Berkeley study showing that in the boom years of the 1990s, "ethnic Chinese and Indian immigrants started nearly 25% of the high-tech start-ups in [Silicon] Valley." That's nearly 3000 companies, employing on the order of 100,000 people. The market capitalization of Indian-founded or -run U.S.-based companies is nearly half a trillion dollars. Job creation is an economic complex that requires funding and expertise, and Indian and other immigrants contribute to -- not subtract from -- the creation of jobs for other Americans.

Sivakumar is polite, almost apologetic at times -- and more optimistic than some of the things he's experienced as a hired-gun programmer might lead you to expect. Though he maintains that the book is not an autobiography, many of the experiences in it are things he himself encountered; some of them are funny, others either frightening or simply sad. In particular, he makes note of one place that programmers and other tech workers are likely to run into "racially abusive" hostility -- namely, Internet message boards. As he puts it,

"You meet these people every day of your life, and they probably would smile at you at your workplace or even would greet you. They show their real face in those discussion forums. These online discussion forums are great tools for those who want to hide themselves from the public but would like to spew their venom."

Given the hostility faced online and (less often) in real life, sometimes Sivakumar's politeness goes what struck me as too far; I was surprised to read his conciliatory advice to Indians treated suspiciously on the basis of their skin color or accent in the panic-prone modern America to "please accept it," rather than to bristle. That might be pragmatic and sensible advice, but America will be a better place when it's unnecessary.

This book makes no pretense of being an authoritative work on cultural differences, but Sivakumar does delve into a few of the gaps between American and Indian aesthetics, habits, and mores. Sexually explicit entertainment is far more accessible in the U.S. than in much of the world, and in India in particular; he labels the usually short-lived exploration by some new immigrants of the seedier side of American entertainment "The X-Rated Movie Syndrome." On a different note, vegetarian food isn't easy to find in company cafeterias, which means for many Indian programmers one of many small barriers to acceptance by their coworkers, because they can't simply order off the menu at a company cafeteria.

Even trivial aspects of daily life are sometimes imbued with cultural meaning: after being advised by a friend to "walk smart" (that is, confidently, not quietly or humbly) along company corridors, he writes "It sounded true to me, and I was prepared for my next American adventure. 'Alright, I am going to walk straight and smart as of tomorrow!' I tried recently only to have my colleagues comment that I walk like President Bush."

Despite a casual style and sometimes distracting use of jargon ("Dude" is funnier in the title than when it appears several times in the text), the content of Debugging is serious. Sivakumar and other immigrant programmers are not abstractions or hypotheticals: they're designing processors, programming systems of all scales, and bringing the results of high-end education worldwide to places like Palo Alto, New York and Austin. They're also facing an anti-immigrant backlash that ranges from merely spiteful (the usual) to actually violent (thankfully uncommon). Sivakumar's experience in the U.S. isn't wholly negative -- he's quick to point out otherwise -- but includes cavalier treatment from co-workers and landlords, and even harassment from a flag-waving driver gesturing obscenely (and blocking his car) on the streets of New Jersey. That's the sort of experience most light-skinned, native-born Americans are lucky not to face on a daily basis.

Losing friends and neighbors to the terror attacks of 2001 isn't something that happened only to American citizens, and Sivakumar was touched by both; five residents of his New Jersey apartment complex were killed by those attacks, along with the wife of a friend. In this and other aspects of life in America, he justifiably considers himself a part of the U.S. high-tech economy, not a mere visitor, and uses the second person when talking about the American software industry specifically. If you're an American by birth, realize that Sivakumar is an American by choice (even if he has ties and loyalties to both India and Sri Lanka besides), whatever his visa status says.

This is also a funny book, in parts -- in particular, Sivakumar's experiences ordering lunch in an American company cafeteria made me laugh. (Pronouncing "milk" with an emphasis on the "l" rather than the "i" is a matter of spoken convention, after all, not a rule of nature -- but a short "i" will get you a carton of milk faster in an American company cafeteria). The author's graceful levity is welcome, and it helps to defuse the natural anger I felt at some of the odious treatment he describes.

The writing is understandable throughout, but Sivakumar is clearly a programmer writing, rather than a writer who happens to also be a programmer; much of the text is awkwardly phrased, and dotted with avoidable errors in spelling or diction. (One that stuck out: in more than one place, the name of fellow H1-B immigrant Linus Torvalds is rendered "Linus Travolds.") The chronology of Sivakumar's own story is not always clear, either; he mentions offhandedly at one point early on that "[b]y the way, my wife had come from India and joined me by then"; a clearer timeline would help in unifying the anecdotes which make up much of the book.

Sivakumar is also guilty in places of wielding the same kind of broad brush he sees being used to paint Indian programmers; he provides cultural sketches of several other groups that may be meant merely as casual observations rather than any sort of final word, but end up doing the same disservice as any other stereotype. (Of his first trip through customs, he says "That was the first time I ever talked to an African American. I never understood their accent even in the movies." This kind of glib generalization doesn't advance the cause of the book; often "they" are hard to characterize so blithely, no matter which "they" is at issue.)

However, take these complaints with a grain of salt: it would be easy to concentrate on the less-than-smooth delivery -- it just wouldn't be smart. If you let the presentation distract you too much from the content, you'll miss what the book's about, which is that "there is another side to the H1-B factor." While the book has some distracting flaws, they don't subtract from its logical conclusion: immigrant programmers in the U.S. are simply human beings trying to better themselves in what's supposed to be a free society, and adding immensely to U.S. prosperity -- and they're doing so despite hostility on several fronts. If you want to understand the not-so-simple phenomenon of Indian programmers in America, don't overlook that message.


You can purchase Debugging Indian Computer Programmers: Dude, Did I Steal Your Job? directly from Divine Tree. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

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This article is flamebait (-1, Flamebait)

Magickcat (768797) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110603)

It should be made possible to mark articles such as this one as "Flamebait".

Re:This article is flamebait (4, Insightful)

be-fan (61476) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110687)

Given the usual level of Slashdot reviews, this one is actually surprisingly good. It's the first one in awhile that I've actually been able to read all the way trhough!

Re:This article is flamebait (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110732)

The poster is ignorant. It should be possible
to mark posts like the above as "obviously
just skimmed the content and DID NOT READ
THE FUCKING ARTICLE."

Immigrants (5, Insightful)

alexo (9335) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110617)


> He asks pointedly "[W]hy do some modern Americans (of course, a small
> percentage) want only those immigrant programmers and IT workers who came
> during recent times to go back home, yet tend to forget that their parents or
> grandparents were immigrants too?"


Because nobody resents new immigrants like old immigrants.

Oh, there are exceptions of course but unfortunately they seem to prove the rule.

(my first first post posted)

Re:Immigrants (4, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110693)

Yep.

I remember, not too long after 9/11, reading an interview with a kid (19 years old, something like that) who was arrested as part of a mob that vandalized a mosque. The reporter asked him why he did it, and he replied, "I'm a real American. I hate Arabs and I always have."

What was striking about this was that the kid's last name was "Mc" something. Apparently his family never bothered to tell him the stories about the reception his ancestors got when they first stepped off the boat ...

Re:Immigrants (4, Interesting)

MooseByte (751829) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110837)


"after 9/11, reading an interview with a kid (19 years old, something like that) who was arrested as part of a mob that vandalized a mosque."

Better still, when Timothy McVeigh killed hundreds in the bombing of the federal building in OK, where were the mobs running around threatening white males of Christian background?

"Real" American? Unless your family was hunting buffalo here thousands of years ago, you're just a newbie tourist.

---

Cthulhu holiday songs [cthulhulives.org] , for the gift that keeps on loathing.

Re:Immigrants (5, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110896)

Or more specifically, white males of Irish background -- who were, in fact, until within living memory, stereotyped as drunk, violent, stupid, and Not Like Us. Looks like they shook that stereotype just in time. There was a religious aspect, as well, of course; Catholicism was regarded with suspicion by "real", i.e. Protestant, Americans throughout much of the 19th c. and well into the 20th. There were anti-Catholic/anti-Irish riots, exclusionary laws, the whole nine yards. Now that Irishness and Catholicism are no longer considered foreign ... hey! Look at that Arab terrorist / job-stealing Indian / ____ ____ over there! The names change; the attitudes don't.

Re:Immigrants (4, Insightful)

buffer-overflowed (588867) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110717)

H1-B Visa holders aren't immigrants though. I wish that they were.

Re:Immigrants (1)

The Bungi (221687) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110766)

Especially among the same ethnic groups. Mexicans tend to dislike other Mexicans but wouldn't even consider an Indian or a Chinese to be a competitor (after all problems among immigrants are largely about competition in the same sphere of influence).

There are exceptions there as well, of course, but it tends to be true.

One of the things Americans tend to forget is that there is as much difference between, say, Indians from Calcutta or Bangalore, and Mexicans from Mexico City and Monterrey. For an American (and this really applies to any population that recieves immigrants) they tend to be all the same, but they know the differences and those sometimes make for some bad blood among people, even if they're from the same country.

Because H1-B is NOT AN IMMIGRATION PROGRAM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110795)

The H1-B is a NON-IMMIGRANT VISA.

The law says that they're supposed to go home if they lose their job or at the end of their servitude.

H1-B is a "guest worker" programer. If you come over as and H1-B, you should go home later.

If you want to stay, apply for an immigrant visa.

From H1-B to Green Card (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110912)

If you have an H1-B visa you don't have to go home to get a green card. You can apply for permanent residency while in the US. To make sure you are successful just hire a good immigration lawyer and spend a lot of money on legal fees ($7000-to $10000 maybe even more)

For people living in the Bay Area I recommend Berry, Appleman and Leiden from San Francisco (www.usabal.com). Expensive, but the best. Their fees for one person start at $9000. A consultation costs $250.

Re:Immigrants (1)

deemzzzz_k (826129) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110820)

I think you just answered the question of "why do old immigrants resent new immigrants" with "because they do"? Very insightful indeed...
American xenophobia is increasingly common and ironic but I don't see this as the cause of distrust towards H1B visas. The issue seems to be a case of confusing H1B (talent - needed) temprorary work visas with opening a door for outsourcing. While it's true that IT outsourcing firms have perfected the technique of bringing offsore personnel to the HQ for on the job training, it's still far from the norm. Kudos to the author for sharing his experience.

Needed talent? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110924)

We need doctors, lawyers, policemen, teachers, firemen, etc. Why not "special" immigration programs for them?

H1-B is not a "temporary" visa. It's good for 6 years. H1-B is a "guest worker" visa where the visa is held by the employer. The employer calls the shots.

It's not "American xenophbia". There you go! Labeling advocates of fair immigration policy with a slur! You'll probably get modded up as "+5 insightful". The first person yelling "Xenophobia" usually gets some pretty good bonus points around here.

It is, in fact, "American common sense" to get a hold of the situation and regulate in-migration on a fair basis and at moderate levels. Open borders, "guest worker" programs, illegal immigration, too high quotas, "picking winners" economic management and so on is a cause for anger among many Americans. That does not mean they are "Xenophobic" or "Racist" or "America-Firsters" or whatever you want to call them. It's just moderate folks wanting to fix a bad policy.

Repeat after me (1, Informative)

Augusto (12068) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110848)

> Because nobody resents new immigrants like old immigrants.

Repeat after me; H1-B != immigration

Re:Immigrants (5, Interesting)

pilot-programmer (822406) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110867)

Most people I know really don't resent immigration - they and I only resent immigration when unemployment is an issue. Some economists are forecasting economic problems for the US in about 10 years when the baby boom generation starts retiring en masse, but I have never met anybody who thinks we should restrict immigration when the immigrants will be necessary to the economy. I have friends working at companies that hire a lot of H-1B workers, and they tell me the Indians are straight out of school. But these companies will not consider any Americans without a great deal of experience, setting a double standard for Americans and Indians. To unemployed programmers - people who were laid off and had to train their H-1B replacements or new graduates who are told the only new graduates who are qualified come from other countries - it really doesn't matter how much money foreign tech workers spend while here. It just matters that the foreigner can spend money and the unemployed programmer has no money to spend. Disagree? Try losing your job, spending about a year being told you are underqualified in the computer industry and overqualified in other fields, and see how you feel when companies that will not consider you tell Congress they need more foreign tech workers.

Re:Immigrants (1)

Clod9 (665325) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110921)

There's a difference between an IMMIGRANT and an H1B HOLDER. An immigrant is immigrating, that is, coming for the long term to build a life and a legacy in America. An H1B holder is here for the money, or perhaps is an intending immigrant who is lying to the immigration service. Neither of these deserves the respect that we should, and do, have for the many immigrants who have come and are coming to build America.

And as for contributing financially, I fail to see how someone who works in America and sends substantial sums back to a foreign country to support relatives there (whether it's India or any other country) is "contributing" as much as an American citizen whose funds stay in US banks and pay for goods in the US economy.

I have to say I have many great friends who are H1B visa holders. Without exception they are hardworking, admirable people whom I hold in high regard. But don't try to tell me their presence doesn't affect the ability of Americans to find jobs. That's a crock. All the ones I know are doing the work of two US citizens because of the slave-like hours they work, and they have no choice because being fired is catastrophic.

The H1B is grossly misused. It's misused by companies who want cheap labor without outsourcing overseas, and it's misused in labor statistics to show how it's supposedly "difficult" to find IT workers. It's not hard to find an experienced, skilled person and work with them for a few months to get them up to speed in a specialty. But that would require loyalty, on both sides, and Corporate America just isn't into that any more.

Jaded? Yeah, you bet. Only job I've ever been fired from was one whose management was given over to a team of Indians. And it wasn't the quality of my work that was at issue, nor my ability to work with foreign nationals. Both of those are my strong points. No, it was a quest to find slots for their friends in India, waiting to land in the US.

Immigrants and Science (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110960)

Unfortunately lot of people forget the amount of contribution made by immigrants to american society in terms of scientific advancement. Were Albert Einstein, Ernico fermi, Neils bohr, Von neuman, Wernher von Braun....americans?

Karma or Dharma? (1, Insightful)

mfh (56) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110618)

I'm a programmer and I've often downloaded scripts and classes for PHP online. I've tried using code from a wide variety of spoken languages (all for PHP or C++), because sometimes these packages have the features I want. Every time I use these scripts it's a pain to try and understand what the parent coder had in mind, or what they meant by certain var names, and comments. Don't even bother trying to translate them using Babelfish or something, because it's like playing a guessing game. This usually happens after the code has already been integrated and needs an update.

So I've stayed away from that, and find that Google is helpful to an extent for looking for scripts in English (but not 100%).

The bottom line is that Indian programmers were thought of as an all-powerful way for corporations to combat wage hikes in North America. The fact that these same companies are feeling the backlash now due to the lack of scaling they are finding, triggers a bittersweet emotion...

Familiar posting? (-1, Troll)

Russ Nelson (33911) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110621)

Boy this article seems familiar? Didn't I already flame somebody for saying something stupid about this book? Probably. Remember:

I could be mistaken, but... (5, Insightful)

BalorTFL (766196) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110627)

...aren't most people compaining more about tech jobs being outsourced for $10/hr to programmers living in countries like India, rather than the Indian workers coming to the U.S. and earning a more typical salary?

Re:I could be mistaken, but... (2, Informative)

cmowire (254489) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110722)

No, first it was the H1B visa holders, then it was outsourcing.

Re:I could be mistaken, but... (4, Interesting)

dirgotronix (576521) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110859)

Define what you mean by a 'typical' salary?

I'm a web developer specialising in e-commerce (php/mysql/asp/etc, not wysiwyg) in a small (15 person) firm, and /I/ make $10/hour, and I'm white and was born in Los Angeles. Do you really think that what you're doing is worth much more than that?

If you want to make more money, do something that /isn't/ a widely-known skill, that most high school kids have already taken courses on. Go clean bathrooms for a few years.

Basic economics, people. Too much supply, very little demand. Go for what's cheapest.

Re:I could be mistaken, but... (3, Insightful)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110943)

$10/hr?

you're getting screwed, buddy. I pay my maid more than that!

wow...

Re:I could be mistaken, but... (1)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110917)

exactly.

when foreigners are here in the US, they have to compete on SOMETHING like a typical US salary. closer - far closer - then they'd make back home.

this means that if they're here, a company that would hire them would be paying close to what a US born person would have to make. this means that a US born person has at least A CHANCE of competing for that same job - since the employer has already understood that (say) $100k has to be paid to SOME employee.

what irks me is that, more and more, these jobs are ALL becoming telecommute. no longer can I compete for a job when my competitor can 'get by' with 1/3 of my salary since he lives in india.

I don't mind competing 1:1. that's fair and if someone who is also going to make $100k is better than me, he should get the job.

but its just not fair (dammit!) when I have to compete with people who make 1/3 of my salary.

I can't win that fight.

and this doesn't 'scale'. look where we'll be in a few years if this continues as it is now. ;(

India. (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110630)

There's a hell of a lot to know about India.
One detail that many Americans don't really understand, is that there are essentially three careers that are considered to be more desirable than all others: Doctor, Engineer, and Computer Programmer. In some circles, you are not successful if you are not, or don't have a son, in one of these professions. This concept is as foreign to Americans as the idea of arranged marriage (which is still very much alive among Indians, even those living and working in the US!).

There is a good reason India happens to be the place where the computer programming jobs go! In the US, it's looked at as something significantly less important than being one of the three top careers.

Backwards (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110737)

One detail that many Americans don't really understand, is that there are essentially three careers that are considered to be more desirable than all others: Doctor, Engineer, and Computer Programmer. In some circles, you are not successful if you are not, or don't have a son, in one of these professions.

Funny. Here in the West, if you are a computer programmer you'll never even get a girlfriend, let alone have a son someday. I didn't know the opposite was true once you passed the Prime Meridian. I guess it's like that summer-in-the-Northern-Hemisphere-winter-in-the-So uthern thing

Re:India. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110791)

This concept is as foreign to Americans as the idea of arranged marriage

There's a reason for that.

Re:India. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110905)

One detail that many Americans don't really understand, is that there are essentially three careers that are considered to be more desirable than all others: Doctor, Engineer, and Computer Programmer.

One detail that many Indians don't really understand, is that there are essentially three carrers that are considered to be more desirable than all others: Doctor, Engineer, and Computer Programmer.

You don't have any inherient right to come here and work. It's a priviledge. The purpose of the H1B system was to allow companies to hire talent in fields where there are an insufficient number of American workers available. As programmers are being laid off and being forced to take non-programming jobs, it hardly makes sense that the H1B system be used (abused) to bring in programmers when we apparently have plenty. The idea of the H1B system is NOT to help companies save money. It's not to get Indian workers to pay taxes, even though they don't seem to use many of the benefits. None of these points are relevant to the fact that the reasoning behind H1B does not support its use to bring in Indian workers for jobs for which there are American workers available.

I am also sick of the idea that just because that America was built on immigrants that immigration to America is an inalienable right. That is simply not true. It is a priviledge.

Purchse the book (0, Redundant)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110631)

I don't think I need to after reading that review/essay

This is weird (-1, Troll)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110632)

Codes don't work when you replace C++ with Indian text. I don't understand this article. Is the comment in a different language a problem? Or the locale and language packs of the product a problem?

****** FUCKING KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS ****** (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110634)

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# se a clear subject that describes what your message is about.****** FUCKING KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS ******
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferenc
# se a clear subject t****** FUCKING KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS ******hat describes what your message is about.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferenc
# se a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferenc
# se a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might****** FUCKING KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS ****** be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferenc

Re:****** FUCKING KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS ****** (0, Flamebait)

Maow (620678) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110758)

My experience has been that white trash is the most vocal on issues of race.

The more vicious the racist, the more likely that the "race" they're defending consider them worthless pieces of shit.

Take the parent poster, for example...

The Indo in "Indo-European" (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110647)

500 million+ or so North Indians are the "Indo"
in the phrase "Indo-European people and languages".

Even the nazis spoke Hindi on purpose for that
very reason. 'swastika', 'shubhtika', 'laltika'
'arya', 'varna' etc are all Hindo words and
Hinduism by definition is the Aryan religion (the
term is defined in the holy hindu book 'Rig Veda').

English itself is descended from the same language
tree as PIA (Proto Indo Aryan) i.e, Sanskrit/Hindi.

Not only is there no culture shock but the entire
"western" culture IS BASED ON indian culture
(latin and greek are both descended from Proto
Sanskrit). 'soma' and 'kama' (liquor and porn)
are Aryan religious concepts.

All Hindu temples (about a billion of them),
weddings, ceremonies, festivals and decorations
use the holy swastika. Buddhists and Jains do
so too (since both Gautum Buddha and the founder
of Jainism were Hindu).

FUCKING SHUT THE FUCK UP WE ALL WANT THEM DEAD (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110661)

ASTR23LKJLKDSFGA

# y to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
# Read other people*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** 's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
# Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
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# If you want replies to your comments sent t

# y to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
# Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
# Use a clear subject that describes what your message is abo*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** *** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** ut.
# Offtopic, Infla*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** mmatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** the User Preferences Page)
# If you want replies to your comments sent t

# y to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
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# Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
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# y to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
# Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplica*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** ting what has already been said.
# Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
# Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comme*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** nts might be moder*** KILL JEWS AND NIGGERS *** ated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
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Got to agree... (3, Insightful)

SilentChris (452960) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110649)

I'm getting a little tired of the "stole my job" complaints. All jobs are determined by the same market forces as everything else. If your job isn't in demand, you can do one of two things:

1.) Work for less (not a promising prospect).
2.) Change your job.

Sure it sucks to do the second, especially if you put a lot of time and energy into it, but if you're smart you can mold your experience to a new occupation.

Take my current job: network administration. Fairly simple task. The more I've read and the more people I've talked to, these kind of jobs are next to be outsourced. IT is going to become a "utility".

So what do I do? I'm currently studying for an MBA. I'm talking to people: "What does it take to become an IT manager? How about a director?" All the "maintenance" jobs in the world can move overseas, but you still need people back at home making the decisions. I'll become one of those.

Re:Got to agree... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110746)

...you can do one of two things:

Three things actually:
3.) Smash the corporation (least desirable)

But MBA/Lawyer stuff is soooo boring... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110942)

Sure, the successfull people get MBA's, like, in the 80's it was the rage to get a law degree..but, for those of us who are total nerd basket cases, all that business/management/law degree stuff is simply too boring, even though it can pay substantially more, I would be bored silly...like when I had to take an accounting course, I would rather read a technical publication on programming or electronics or science. However, a microcomputer resseller company I worked for in the past, the owner had a genetics degree plus an MBA too, he was rich, I just worked as a tech, but I feel, I had more fun, but I did make next to nothing, that's the trade-offs you are stuck with in life!

Yep. (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110650)

Get a life and stop blaming all your problems on H1B's and Indians! Losers.

Re:Yep. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110677)

Actually quite an insightful comment from this AC.

Geez... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110654)

Why not just say "Delousing Indian Computer Programmers"?

Grrr (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110656)

Dude, Did I Steal Your Job?

Yes you did, you insensitive clod!

Wash your hands (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110659)

I dont care if you take my dba position, but for the love of God please please please wash your hands when you're in the office bathroom. You realize you're sharing keyboards don't you?

Re:Wash your hands (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110703)

hahaha! foreigners are dirty right?

stfu you redneck hick. i 0wn your job, bitch. you can have all the lysol you need in your new job... cleaning the toilets for the Indian CEO.

Re:Wash your hands (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110771)

I'm the parent AC, and i'm originally from that part of the world (Afghanistan), and I don't mean to imply that foreigners are dirty. The hindu culture promotes efficiency and conservation of precious things like water. Very noble in my opinion, however in an office environment, it's okay to wash your hands with soap and water. I witness this act(or lack of)all too often by same few suspects. Dude walks out of stall, and b-lines for the exit. Leaving the people at the sink in shock and awe. I had to investigate why. I was told by a punjabi friend of mine that it stems from this cultural belief, mixed in with a bit of laziness. Just my two cents.

Re:Wash your hands (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110711)

Oh and also...No heinous amount of Aqua Velva aftershave will cover up the scent of curry and chatney. I recommend immediate assimilation to nothing other than U.S. hygiene practices(void Southern U.S., they're worse than you).

Doh! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110666)

I thought I was pissed off because of the jobs that were -leaving- the US and being shipped off-shore.
Doh!

Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (-1, Troll)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110668)

More significantly, H1-B workers, as legal immigrants to the U.S., have the dubious privilege of paying the same taxes as other Americans (and more than most), with a far smaller chance of reaping their benefits. Most are single, and send no children to the U.S. schools they help underwrite, and most will never collect on the Social Security system or medical-care systems their payroll taxes help prop up. Hogwash! Did they help pay for the existing infrastructure that they get to take advantage of?

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (4, Insightful)

Daniel Dvorkin (106857) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110716)

Did they help pay for the existing infrastructure that they get to take advantage of?

If you grew up in the US, then that means that for the first 18-22 years of your life (at least) you weren't helping to pay for the infrastructure you took advantage of, either -- and, since you probably went to public school, you were taking much more advantage of it than they are.

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (3, Insightful)

be-fan (61476) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110743)

First, Social Security is pretty much the biggest service that you get from federal tax dollars, and education is the biggest you get from local tax dollars. If they don't take advantage of these, then they are paying a disproportionate share of taxes. Second, and more importantly, pretty much everyone is paying a (favorably) disproportionate share of taxes. The "My tax money payed for all these services" argument is a bit stupid when you consider that the top 5% of Americans pay over 50% of all the taxes. Unless you make more than $200,000 a year, you're disproportionately benefiting from services paid for by other peoples' tax money.

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (3, Insightful)

puppetman (131489) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110782)

Unless your 200 years old, there's lots of it you didn't pay for either.

If you travel to a different city or state, and use facilities paid for by that city/state, do you feel guilty? They're happy to have you, spending money at local businesses.

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (5, Insightful)

ignipotentis (461249) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110783)

Hogwash! Did they help pay for the existing infrastructure that they get to take advantage of?

Ok, I'll bite. Did you? I will venture a guess that you did not. They are indeed paying more than their share. This is the price they choose to pay by being allowed to work here. And that additional money is helping fund our current educational program (property taxes). It is also helping to build the new infrastructures which they will most likely not be around to use.

Please stop looking for an excuse not to like immigrants. It's foolish and sophomoric. This is America. Wether you like it or not, new people are going to move here. The more time you spend trying to stop it, the less time you get to spend doing anything meaningful with your life.

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (1)

Atzanteol (99067) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110941)

They are indeed paying more than their share.

So are the incredibly wealthy. Think about it. They are taxed *far* more than they take advantage of.

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110790)

Fuck that.

Did you pay for the existing infrastructure you were born into? Bite me.

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (2, Insightful)

morn (136835) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110830)

Hogwash! Did they help pay for the existing infrastructure that they get to take advantage of?
By the same argument, aren't they paying for new infrastructure that they're not going to get to take advantage of?

Re:Paying disproportionate share of taxes? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110937)

What infrastructure are they using that they're not paying for? If they drive on the roads, they pay gas tax. If they work they pay federal tax which also pays for roads. If they go to a hospital, they have to pay in cash, or their insurance (which they or their employer has to pay) pays for it. They won't use welfare, etc., but they will pay for it.

Yet they bring an education into the country. They have to pay high taxes. They contribute much more than they take. Compare this to the perennial welfare family.

I'm a bit sore about this - I'm a Canadian who lives in Canada and works in the U.S. I get challenged with this same logic all the time in the U.S., and it's crap. I use next to NO infrastructure here (don't live in the U.S.) but I pay full state and federal taxes and get absolutely no deductions, so I pay way more than the usual amount.

The real scam I pull is that I don't pay much Canadian tax at all, but I DO use the infrastructure there, including the big one: health care (even though I have U.S. health insurance through my employer - pays to have some when I'm on this side of the border). All Canada gets is the money I convert injected into the economy. But alas, both countries signed the tax treaty that way...

Well... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110696)

That's what happens when you choose such a useless major like CS, then expect to get paid $100K a year.

Oblig. Simpsons Quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110697)

I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.

Short-sighted argument. (2, Insightful)

raehl (609729) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110698)

The argument of the book seems to be that H1-B's are good for the economy because they pay taxes and buy stuff.

What that argument misses entirely is that if we had an unemployed US citizen in that same job, they would ALSO pay the SAME taxes and buy stuff, and NOT send money to a foreign country. "Because the immigrant came to the US, they had to buy a car!" So? Because the immigrant stole an American's job, that American couldn't buy a car! There is no net gain (and perhaps a net loss) to US Citizens from employing an immigrant.

The better argument for allowing immigrants to work here, and one that also appears to be in this book, is that the economy works better if we have the people who are best at doing a job do those jobs. If we can take the best and the brightest from other countries and have them work in our companies and produce better product for us, we should steal every single one of them we can get. If this means that Americans who are less qualified for those jobs have to do something else (like sell cars to our better-qualified immigrants), that's fine. Trying to protect the jobs of people who are not as good at them from people who are better at them, but happen to have been born somewhere else, just means we're paying someone more to do less. That's a sure way to criple an economy.

Re:Short-sighted argument. (1, Insightful)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110811)

> What that argument misses entirely is that if we had an unemployed US citizen in that same job, they would ALSO pay the SAME taxes and buy stuff, and NOT send money to a foreign country.

True -- but that, plus your next point...

> the economy works better if we have the people who are best at doing a job do those jobs. If we can take the best and the brightest from other countries and have them work in our companies and produce better product for us, we should steal every single one of them we can get.

...augurs for a change to the H-1B programme that would really drive the anti-immigration people nuts: If you want them to stay, give them green cards.

The H-1B worker is allowed to stay for three years, renew once, and stay for another three years. After those six years are up, he must leave the country.

If you've got enough high-tech skills to get a job here, and you spend six years doing it, and your employer still wants you here, then the US is cutting its own throat by sending you back.

The green card, unfortunately, requires that the employer not hire the best person for the job. If the government says the job needs a B.Sc, then a furriner with a Ph.D. will lose the job to an American with a B.Sc.

Where's the sense in that?

Oh, right, it's the government. Never mind.

Kick out all the high-tech H-1B folks. Deny 'em green cards by throwing "best person for the job" out the window, and by making the green card process take longer than the six years an H-1B is allowed to be here legally. But because we need the Hispanic vote, amnesty for everyone from Mexico!

Because if there's one thing this country needs, it's fewer legally-present $60000/year computer programmers paying taxes, and more illegal toilet-cleaners and fruit-pickers earning $5000/year and collecting welfare and sending their kids to school on the taxpayer's dime because neither the illegal immigrant nor his employer dares to put them on the tax rolls.

Re:Short-sighted argument. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110814)

"Because the immigrant came to the US, they had to buy a car!"

How does a person get a car loan for longer than the amount of time they can guarantee even being in the country?

How do you get a 20-year mortgage if your visa is only good for 5?

Re:Short-sighted argument. (4, Interesting)

bwoodring (101515) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110835)

The problem with that argument is the assumption that US companies are hiring immigrants because they are more skilled or brighter. Realistically, the only reason most of them are hired is because they are cheap. So what we're really doing it devaluing IT work in the US.

Re:Short-sighted argument. (1)

bat'ka makhno (207538) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110959)

Please, don't disturb the self-reliant randian survivalist circle jerk an article like never fails to produce. Every pansy-ass twenty-something slashbot thinks he can become the next Larry Page with enough hard work and moral fortitude.

Re:Short-sighted argument. (1)

Scarblac (122480) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110852)

That immigrant usually has a rather good education, paid for by the Indian government, that didn't cost the US a dime. But you reap most of the benefits.

Re:Short-sighted argument. (5, Insightful)

be-fan (61476) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110929)

Say it with me: "My job does not belong to me." Try it again: "My job does not belong to me." Understand? A "job" belongs to the employer who offers it. He is free to give it to whomever he wants. Foreign workers cannot "steal" your job, because it was never yours to begin with.

This is how capitalism works. Either deal with it, or move to a non-capitalist country.

I understand... (2, Funny)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110705)

> Debugging Indian Computer Programmers

Hello, SLASHDOTTER!

My name is JOHN and I am understand you are having trouble with Debugging Indian Computer Programmers.

Please to reboot your Windows.

If this has not resolved your trouble with Debugging Indian Computer Programmers, please reply to this email addressing trouble ticket sid=133066, and we will be glad to helping you.

Thank you for your business,
John.

Re:I understand... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110950)

Some other tidbits while you're rebooting your router/pc/microwave/or waiting for your college loan account to come up overseas....

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]: So how is the weather in San Diego?

[Irrate caller]: It sucks like your accent.

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]: I understand you guys elected President Bush again, very strong leader.

[Irrate caller]: I voted for Linkin Park member #12

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]:I want to thank you again for calling Linksys support. I would like to use this time to tell you about an exciting extended warranty offer for your Linksys 802.11b router.

[Irrate caller]: This router sux, it wont even take hacked firmware

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]: I do not understand the question. What is this hacked product you speak of?

[Cracked XP box]: Invalid IP address 169.254.23.132

[Irrate caller]: Ok, I still can't connect to slashdot.org. I can see the cached page though.

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]: Have you had any viruses in your pentium recently?

[Irrate caller]: I have an AMD64 OC'd to 3.5ghz.

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]: My cousin owns the patents to the AMD64 architecture. He is 16.

[Irrate caller]: Fuq it, i'm going to leech off of my neighbors SSID.

[DEEPAK "JOHNATHAN"]: SSID?

Dude, did I steal your... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110715)

...dupe?

Yes. Over and over and over and over again.

Dey Tuuuuk Ehhhhrrrrr Juuuuuuuhhhb!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110724)

Maybe Slashdotters can use this as the excuse they've been waiting for to "scramble into a big pile and get gay with each other"?

That reminds me (2, Funny)

Neil Blender (555885) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110731)

Back in the dot com days, I worked for an internet porn company that got the bright idea of outsourcing a bunch of work to Russia. Turned out that it didn't work to well but they still wrote a bunch of code for us. Now, for all you people who talk about Perl being difficult to read, try this: I had to debug Perl code written in Russian.

Re:That reminds me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110789)

"I worked for an internet porn company that got the bright idea of outsourcing a bunch of work to Russia."

That's a pretty good idea, depending on what part of the company moved to Russia. Russia does not hold NEARLY the level of stigma against things like nude modelling, as the US.

Lets call a spade a spade (0, Troll)

mysterious_mark (577643) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110757)

There are many, many available US programmers, if you don't know an unemployed programmer, you probably don't live in the US. The H1-B program is merely a tool used by greedy corporations to hire workers for well less than the prevailing wage. It is an outrage that this program even exist considering the rampant un-employment in our domestic IT industry. It seems that this current administration will stop at nothing to give every last US job to a foriegn national. When we have no indusry left at all, and the dollar collapses, and our econmomy is in shambles, we will have nothing to blame but idiotic greed driven policies like the H1-B program. M Mark

Re:Lets call a spade a spade (1)

Blue-Footed Boobie (799209) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110971)

I'll call your bluff.

If those 'poor unemployed' US Programmers were willing to suck down some pride and work for the same wage as the "evil immegrant" - guess what - THEY WOULDN'T GET HIRED!

Maddox had it right!

"If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's probably because he or she was willing to work harder for less money. "

Easy.... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110760)

use Raid.

Most of the hostility to the H1B program (5, Insightful)

monopole (44023) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110761)

My experience is that the Hostility to the H1B program is not directed towards the visa holders but towards the corporations using the program. The H1B program is used by corporations the way they use scabs and outsourcing, to drive down wages and job security by using a desparate population. The worst aspect of the H1B program is that it is not an imigration program but nearly a form of indentured servitude. The visa holder is often at the mercy of the sponsor, not free to switch jobs easily, and facing deportation once his visa expires. This may be used by corporations to hold down wages and dissent.
I'm very happy to see immigration of skilled workers as citizens, but I'm not happy to see the exploitation of guest workers as H1Bs.

Bugs?? (0, Flamebait)

pair-a-noyd (594371) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110763)

What about the curry?

NJ driver gesturing and blocking the road (3, Funny)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110769)

As a light-skinned native-born American [and New Jersey native] let me just say that such driving and gesturing spans everyone!

[joking!]

Debugging? (2, Funny)

Quixote (154172) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110774)

Why should debugging Indian programmers be any different than the standard methods [nih.gov] for any programmer?

a waste of time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110775)

My best advice to skilled inmigrants is not to worry much about how they are treated, and not try to put much effort in being culturally integrated into american society. Trying to change human behavior be it yours or others' is a waste of time. Despite all efforts there's always a bit of racism even in good meaning people, so you might as well ignore the whole thing and go about your business. Eventually you find people you like and you just hang around with them.

Best IT in the world (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110787)

Immigration is the only chance for the USA to keep its leading position in the world in all domains including IT.
Dont complain... while immigrants take the jobs of some people now, this wont last for long, judging from the direction of the mental condition of americans.
(see the last couple of elections)

How well can I associate with this.. (4, Insightful)

dukenuke123 (836354) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110793)

I am in the same situation as the author. And sometimes a few things get on my nerves like nothing else. America is not the friendliest of nations as far as social life goes, its not like India where you know all your neighbors, and your social life (and social life does not mean hanging out in bars) makes you never feel lonely. Every programmer that comes to the USA goes through days when he/she feels that it is a curse to be so good. If it wasnt so, if I wasnt good at this, I could have so easily stayed back home and worked in anything. Its a misconception to think India does not have non-outsourced jobs. I came here because I was interested in technology, and I wanted to learn. I wouldnt mind living on $ 10/hr as long as I could afford to. We come here and try to understand the customs and accents and various other things about Americans (I know, I came to your country, not the other way, so I have to do the extra work). I had a bus-driver asking me what kind of education I had and from which filthy country I came from, when I asked him about a bus stop, and found out that I was on the wrong bus, and he had to take the bus to the side and let me get out (this was 3 weeks into my US adventure). Now, he may have been tired (although it was early morning) or maybe he didnt get laid the earlier night.. but its still not cool. I must add that these things are isolated incidents, and dont generally represent America. The idea is to forget trying to blame someone else for taking anything away from you.. that person has had so much taken away from him as well.

Re:How well can I associate with this.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110894)

As an Indian American (some one raised in the States since I was 2), but born in India, I really resent the fact that Indians complain that they don't know their neighbors and that their social life sucks in the usa. Why? It's because like any other culture, we tends to gravitate to those that are similar to us, meaning, Indians would want to live with Indian neighbors, and have Indian friends. The real problem here is that Indians aren't really interested in creating long term relationship with Americans, where the culture differences cause shocks.

Now, on to the whole H1-B visa thing. It's a good thing and a bad thing. It's a good thing when the USA can bring lots of very intelligent/smart people; It's a bad thing when you have average developers coming from India.

Lastly, I just went to visit some Vendors for my company in India, (come on, management thought it would cool to send the only pseudo Indian guy), and I wasn't impressed by one person. In fact, I'd rather fire these vendors and hire vendors based in the USA. The amount of time that we are spending "training" the vendors, is cutting into the time that they are actually solving our problems. Just my two cents.

Re:How well can I associate with this.. (5, Interesting)

jnik (1733) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110922)

I had a bus-driver asking me what kind of education I had and from which filthy country I came from, when I asked him about a bus stop, and found out that I was on the wrong bus, and he had to take the bus to the side and let me get out

Don't worry too much; the regulars get the same sort of abuse (although not necessarily with the racist trappings). There's also a strong anti-bus stigma among the population at large: riding the train is trendy and cosmopolitan; riding the bus is ghetto. This trickles down to the operator's attitude.

He's right (5, Insightful)

rewt66 (738525) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110800)

I was surprised to read his conciliatory advice to Indians treated suspiciously on the basis of their skin color or accent in the panic-prone modern America to "please accept it," rather than to bristle. That might be pragmatic and sensible advice, but America will be a better place when it's unnecessary.

No, he's right, because at that point, he's talking to the Indians. They can either accept it, resent it, or leave, because unfortunately, that's the way it is.

But the reviewer is also right. America will be a better place when racism is gone. Talking to the Americans, I say, "Racism is morally wrong. It is harmful both to recipient and to the racist. Knock that *%^&* off!"

Dude (2, Funny)

P2Powah! (839435) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110804)

Indian : Dude, did I steal your job? American : Yeah, but it sucked anyways.

Jobs (2, Interesting)

deanj (519759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110817)

Everytime the subject of jobs comes up, and people whine and complain about not being able to find a job, they leave out the fact that they can't find a job where they currently live. Then they get all defensive about wanting to keep living where they currently are, and go on moaning about the supposed "bad job market" in the US.

While it may be true that there aren't jobs in their area, there ARE jobs other places in the US, if they're really serious about jobs. And I'm not saying to move out to the middle of no-where to some one-horse town with no other tech in sight.... I'm saying look around there are a lot more jobs out there than people think.

Re:Jobs (1)

NewOrleansNed (836441) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110906)

Just like you're leaving out the feasability of just picking up and leaving. You also don't have a clue about how the job market works from a placement standpoint.

Re:Jobs (2, Interesting)

pilot-programmer (822406) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110931)

Can you tell us where the jobs are? As a new graduate, in the last three months I have been rejected for programming jobs in all 50 states, three territories, and four other countries. All the companies that replied rejected me because I am "underqualified". And I have been rejected from non-computer jobs in 38 states - it seems that if you have a CS degree people offering $35,000 per year think you are "overqualified."

While being rejected because I don't have years of industry experience, people I know who work at some of these companies tell me they are hiring foreigners straight out of school with absolutely no professional experience.

Re:Jobs (1)

SCHecklerX (229973) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110946)

Well, to some people, life is much more than their job. I tried very hard not to move when I was unemployed a few years back. I lived close to some of the best singletrack on the east coast (Michaux state forest in Pennsylvania...Jeremiah Bishop and Chris Eatough always mention it as their favorite place to ride/race). Eventually I ended up moving to Elizabethtown, but I still have trails nearby, and am close enough to michaux to still go up there every now and then, including the races.

For those unfamiliar, singletrack implies mountain biking :) Jeremiah Bishop and Chris Eatough are world champion endurance racers.

The situation is often different than described. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110827)

My company has fired 66% (~60000 let go) of the staff, yet we have brought in Indian contractors to do the same work. They stay for a few months to learn the work and then go back to India where the corporate masters can get away with paying them much lower wages.

I don't resent them. I resent the assholes I work for. I expect eventually I too will be replaced. So it is hard to be cheerful while training my future replacements.

Ironically many of those permanent employees my company has laid off where Indian as well. So they had their jobs taken by their own countrymen.

I have no problem with immigrants coming to work at my company full time and being paid a competitive wage. But I do have issues with the outsourcing.

Won't purchase the book... (3, Informative)

NewOrleansNed (836441) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110828)

... don't need to. The fact of the matter is that with the job boom in India, they get on-the-job training on positions that have been outsourced. Once they reach a level of expertise, they come here to take the jobs that have yet to be outsourced.

These jobs could have been filled by US citizens, but the fact of the matter is that employers don't want to spend the money to train them. What you end up with is a large group of unemployed CS grads with a lot of theoretical knowledge but no practical experience, and that will put you on the fast track for a manager's position at McDonalds.

I used to be a headhunter until recently (long story... graduated during the tech bust), and I can tell you with absolute certainty that the inclusion of H1s in this marketplace has lowered the standards of production and has lowered the wages and rates that American citizens can expect. Many managers have complained to me about the poorly documented crap that they have gotten from H1 shops, only to balk when they hear what the going rates are for American labor.

Yes racists exist on online forums (2, Interesting)

CrazyJim1 (809850) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110841)

Just read Yahoo newsgroups once in a while. Its mostly teenage punks who think crass racial jokes are funny to mix with current events.

And neo-nazis became popular when working class people started losing their job. Blame another race.

Nice thing about Slashdot is there is sane moderation. In yahoo, the majority of posters are crass and moderate up drivel, especially politically motivated posters. Sane moderation leads positive conversations. Insane moderation means you need to trod through each of the 10,000 messages individually to see if anyone has something good to say. Of course, when most people are saying,"Bush is retarded" or just posting obscenities, it gets old.

Slashdot isn't the best forum system that could be created, but its what we got now, and I'm thankful for it.

pre judging is such folly (5, Insightful)

10000000000000000000 (809085) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110854)

just my two cents, but what the heck is wrong with people?

Humans are Humans! We are almost all exactly the same! in fact, the "races" of human don't even fit the biological definition [wikipedia.org] of race! It's a social contstruct.

Culture, well, that's different. Cultures are macro and micro - and at times it seems that there are larger cultural gulfs between city blocks then country borders.

Guess my "race", please.
After all, you slashdotters all look the same to me.
Mostly like ASCII.

Re:pre judging is such folly (1)

BuddieFox (771947) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110903)

"Guess my "race", please."
Homo Sapiens?

Def. of immigrants vs foreign workers (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110871)

Immigrants != foreign workers

I have worked with HB1s that desire to be Americans and I have worked with immigrants that don't. Both may send money out of the country, but from a financial standpoint, the ones America should keep are the ones that want to stay and contribute to our society. The rest are just foreign workers.

Immigration will save the economy. (5, Insightful)

BuddieFox (771947) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110875)

Immigration of people who can support themselves is an inherently good thing for all western countries considering the demographic bomb we are sitting on. Most western countries including the US, even though Europes situation is considerably worse have birthrates that will barely sustain the current population without immigration, this leads to an "inverted" demographical pyramid were very few young people will have to support very many old people out of the workforce. That is, if we dont get immigrants that can help even out the numbers! Consider the following, what happens when: * large portions of the population starts to take money out of the markets through their retirement funds to actually live on the money? Markets will plumet and capital for both mature companies and startups will be harder to raise. * What happens when there are more retired people who pay no or very little in tax, instead of many young people who pay taxes? How do you support basic infrastructure in that case? I could go on.. The point being: western countries should embrace and welcome every immigrant that wants to come to their country to work and make a life, its probably the only thing that will save our economies 30 years from now..

The difference between an immagrant and H1-B. (1)

techno-vampire (666512) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110919)

An immagrant goes to a new country and makes it their home. They plan to stay there the rest of their lives and hope to improve themselves. They may also plan to send money back to their old home to help their family. Somebody working here on H1-B is a guest, here for a short term. They're not expecting to make a new life here, but to grab the money while the getting is good, then go back home and have a better life there. A worthy ambition, but not one to make them well liked by their hosts. I think this is why people resent H1-B workers. They're working for less than a local would and the idea that they're not even planning to stick around just makes it easier to resent them.

Acceptable racism? (5, Interesting)

Alioth (221270) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110920)

As a former H1-B worker who returned home 2 years ago, I think the resentment has a lot to do with skin colour and being Indian.

How can I tell? Well, I never once faced any resentment at all, despite all the vitriol pointed at Indian immigrants.

But then again, I don't have dark skin and most people think I'm American until I speak. You see it all the time in Slashdot - it seems like it's OK to be racist towards Indians for "taking our jobs".

Xmas significance (1)

elh_inny (557966) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110928)

Ask Slashdot:

It has occured to me in a rather painful manner that I run out of money just before Christmas, so I won't be able to buy any presents, have you guys have any ideas on how to make some extra bucks in a couple of days (aside from sexual services, theft etc.)?
My skills are you know typical of /. reader. You name it, I'll do it, just as long as it can be done with a keyboard. The reason I ask this here is I very much qualify for H1-B visa, except I don't want to leave my country, which for me is very unneccesary in the age of Internet.

US is NOT a free society (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 9 years ago | (#11110934)

immigrant programmers in the U.S. are simply human beings trying to better themselves in what's supposed to be a free society

And that's their first mistake. The United States is not currently a free society and hasn't been since the Civil War. H-1b visas (which are for employees and wage slaves, that's why they are called NON-immigrant visas) are a symptom of this: Much as he'd like to be, the author and Linus are NOT immigrants- they are guest workers, here to be used and abused by the corporations and thrown away when their 6 years are up.

In other words, the "people trying to better themselves" aren't the problem- the sytem that treats guest workers and other employees more like slaves than free people is the problem. That's why I dislike H-1b VISAS- H-1b visa holders are usually much more likeable.

Re:US is NOT a free society (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11110973)

Well, its certantly much more free than China or Cuba.
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