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Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the beer-hockey-and-offshore-programmers dept.

Businesses 1111

Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"

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Well, I'm one example (4, Interesting)

FractusMan (711004) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716355)

I work for MSN - MSN which is not offered in Canada, but most of the tech support sites (or so it seems) are located here in Canada.

Re:Well, I'm one example (5, Funny)

irokitt (663593) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716386)

So, you're incapable of using the tech support mantra:

"Well, it works on my end!"

Re:Well, I'm one example (1)

Techguy666 (759128) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716397)

What part of MSN don't we have in Canada? We have MSN Canada (www.msn.ca).

Re:Well, I'm one example (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716427)

I think he means the ISP-like service they offer

Re:Well, I'm one example (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716455)

MSN Internet Access. It's like AOL except the MSN.com (ca) page loads when you open the browser.

Re:Well, I'm one example (2, Informative)

Qamelian (714680) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716464)

Not the website, the ISP. MSN provides internet access through a partner company called Qwest that Microsoft bought into a year or so back. That service is not available in Canada.

Re:Well, I'm one example (4, Insightful)

OECD (639690) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716459)

I thought that one of the big attractions of India et al. is that they're on the other side of the planet, so they can effectively extend the work day overnight. Are there going to be a bunch of third shift programming positions opening in Toronto?

Re:Well, I'm one example (1)

Dr Caleb (121505) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716541)

That's one thing not mentioned in the blurb above. while we have similar languages and legal systems, there is a 12 hour time difference.

And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (3, Interesting)

gurps_npc (621217) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716357)

I am not willing to move north to get a job that pays 40% less than what is available here. I'd rather work outside my field.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716375)

paid 40% and taxed 50%!

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (5, Interesting)

Grey Ninja (739021) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716391)

As a Canadian, I have to say that I'm not here for the money. Yeah, it's a little disturbing that I get paid much less than an American does, but it doesn't bother me THAT much. What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy. And I happen to really enjoy the practice of programming. I will go to where I can get the job I will enjoy the most, regardless of pay, so long as I have enough to take care of myself.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716425)

You can do a job you don't like and make much more and do your programming in your spare time on your yacht.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (1)

Qamelian (714680) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716570)

Welcome to "Lives of the Rich and Masochistic". For some of us, the satisfaction of enjoying the job outweighs any financial benefit. What's the point in making a lot of extra money when working at a job you hate forces you to spend it on therapy for stress?

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (4, Insightful)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716395)

What if the cost of living was close to 40% less?

Think of Canada as another state. Except that while they tax you in Canada, they actually seem to do something with the tax dollars besides 'defence' spending.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (1)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716486)

they actually seem to do something with the tax dollars besides 'defence' spending.

Is Paul Martin's budget out yet?

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716538)

Yeah, they let the United States take care of that for them.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (1)

dsanfte (443781) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716571)

Yes, thank you for keeping that massive Chinese navy off the west coast at bay. Otherwise we'd need to dispatch our canoe death squad and vicious trained polar bears.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (5, Interesting)

madprogrammer (214633) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716593)

Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.

But since the cost of living is so high in L.A. and San Fran things start to work out. From what I've seen living in both countries is that dollar for dollar many items are the same price or at least close. An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550. An American $2.00 loaf of bread is $1.00 Canadian.

My standard of living will not be changing too much when I move from the States to Canada. Even though I'm taking a pay cut.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (1)

Peale (9155) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716398)

But if the cost of living is less as well, it'd be a lateral move. But hey, if you can find work that pays the same outside your field, go for it.

Cost of Living (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716416)

That depends. If cost of living is equivalent, or better, then I wouldn't mind it at all. If a house costs 85,000 instead of 220,000 (standard here in AZ), then I'd take that cut in pay.

This is why people are leaving California. Cost of Living. They may make 100,000 a year, but have to pay 450,000 for a 1 bedroom 1 bath 'house'- with no yard or garage.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (2, Insightful)

dontspellsogood (674913) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716418)

But pay $6,000 for a night in the hospital?

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716420)

Any canadians want to comment on the cost of living? 40% may not be that big of a hit if it's cheap to live. Try buying a house in Westchester, NY.

And the fast food industry appreciates that. (1)

Blaede (266638) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716437)

Enjoy wearing that paper hat.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716438)

You also have to consider that while getting paid less, your cost of living could also be drastically reduced in Canada as well. I used to live in LA and made double than what I do now, but after moving back to Canada, my cost of living is 1/3 of what it used to be. Plus here I don't have to be paranoid about not using ATMs after dark. Of course, I will be a bit biased since I am Canadian.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (-1, Troll)

The0retical (307064) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716440)

You have to understand that the standard of living is much lower up in Canada than in the US. They also provide all the healthcare for their citizens, I will not argue that it may be flawed but you can say that about anything. I really like Canada I go there several times a year to visit, the people are much nicer and laid back than the standard high strung American. I do not think I would live there despite this.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716476)

um, the standard of living in canada is at *least* as good as in the US.....

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (2, Insightful)

dsanfte (443781) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716511)

I've never understood this. How is our standard of living lower? We have everything you do.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (5, Insightful)

count0 (28810) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716443)

Well, the cost of living is also around 40% less (or close enough - sometimes less, sometimes more). Toronto and Vancouver are more spendy than Ottawa, Montreal, or Calgary. But you can have a very nice lifestyle making 40% of a New York or San Jose salary in those three cities. Even more so in places like Edmonton, Regina, or Winnipeg.

One challenge would be paying any US debt load (student loan, US car payment, credit card debt) with Canadian dollars.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (4, Insightful)

ploppy (468469) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716447)

You miss the point. The choice is between earning 40%+ less doing something else, or earning 40% less by moving north. The high paying IT job is gone.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (1)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716466)

I am not willing to move north to get a job that pays 40% less than what is available here. I'd rather work outside my field.

Even if the cost of living was 60% cheaper?

(I have no idea of the stats, but moving to a different country that pays less money when directly converted doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a lower standard of life - there are a lot of other factors)

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (1)

GopherKhan (797508) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716527)

Hell, moving north is much more feasible than moving to India or the Philippines. These days any job's a good job, you know.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716557)

I think folks are missing the point -- your employer would pay 40% less thanks to the relative strength of the US dollar versus the Canadian dollar, combined with reduced health care premiums (most healthcare expenses are covered by the government here).

Meanwhile, you would enjoy an equivalent salary in Canadian dollars. A pint of beer is $5 on both sides of the border, and once you start living in Canada, you wouldn't feel like you were making less.

Or not.. (-1, Redundant)

gphinch (722686) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716367)

Might be time to think about moving North, eh?

For 40% less pay? No.

Time to think about moving north? (1)

mwood (25379) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716370)

To make 40% less?

The beer-hockey sounds interesting, though. :-)

Canadian tech support is a pain in the ass (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716373)

Okay, type su, eh?
% sua
sua: Command not found

Are costs of living... (2, Insightful)

double-oh three (688874) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716376)

Are costs of living about 40% less as well?

Re:Are costs of living... (1)

Opie812 (582663) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716413)

They could be. I'm not sure. With all the taxes I pay I'd never know.

Re:Are costs of living... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716448)

yes, almost, depends on the place, but for example in Québec cost of living is lower than other province, especially house, you can get a nice house for 80'000$US in montréal (or in the suburd). The same house will cost you 200'000$US in most place of the US.
Gas is more expensive, but a lot of people have cars with small engine.
(Oh and, Québec is one of the most taxed place in the world)

Re:Are costs of living... (1)

marcovje (205102) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716566)


And are this salaries or the total amount that the employer has to spend?

I get half of the salary that people get in the US, but my employer pays pretty much the other half to various social securities and benefits, which I would have to have private insurances for anyway.

Re:Are costs of living... (1)

adubey (82183) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716569)

The cost of living is lower than in the US, but not 40% lower. You will likely earn less (after taxes) in Toronto than San Jose.

Also, the country is pretty big, with big differences in cost of living. I hear Halifax is quite cheap, but Vancouver or Toronto are a bit expensive (but probably still cheaper than NYC or the Bay Area, though).

For the Record (2, Funny)

pete-classic (75983) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716377)

I live in Denver and will work for 40% less than average. And I don't say "eh?" all the time.

-Peter

Re:For the Record (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716512)

I live in Vancouver and will work for 40% less than average, and I don't say "Seacrest out!" all the time.

40% Less Pay (2, Interesting)

HomerJay (557235) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716378)

I work in the US about 5 hours from the Canadian border and I get paid about 40% less than the average US programmer.

But... (1)

CptKron (728451) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716379)

But that's only half as cheap!

So much for Canada being pompous... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716380)

Oh, woo... you get our IT jobs. Take them. Maybe now the peabrained yokels that fill those jobs here in the US will need to actually LEARN something and perform a REAL job function.

very few IT jobs in canada. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716385)

canada does not have an outsourcing industry set up let alone the companies to outsoruce to. remember that sales and marketing is required as well as a cheap pool of labour. indian companies agressively market services in the US, while being able to retain a large pool of engineers on the bench (since labour is cheap).
this alone make the difference. in canada you would have to pay engineers $40 CDN an hour while in india is $4 CDN or equivalent. this allows more engineers to sit on the bench, allowing faster scale up.

Re:very few IT jobs in canada. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716509)

Maybe Canada does not have an outsourcing industry. But it has another advantage: most American companies have subsiduaries in Canada. For example, GE started opened a call center for US customers in Canada in the early 90's. The call center wasn't outsourced: it was still owned and run by GE. It's just that it was situated in Canada. Other companies followed suit.

Re:very few IT jobs in canada. (1)

wo1verin3 (473094) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716536)

You're very wrong as far as outsourcing tech support. I work in Canada but our head office is in the US... on the launch of a new product we looked at call centers in the Toronto area and there were 5 good competitors that battled.

The land of the free (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716389)

Although our legal system is "similar", we lack equivalents to silly little things like the DMCA and the Patriot Act.

On the other hand, we're responsible for Celine Dion. On behalf of all Canadians, I apologize profusely.

Re:The land of the free (1)

sindarin2001 (583716) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716474)

And it's the lack of these equivalents, in addition to the ability to actually find a job, that makes Canada look pretty attractive. Surprisingly, being from Montana, you'd be amazed at how many people in other states think that Montana is part of Canada. I'm not sure where they studied geography, but I hope my children never go there :)

Re:The land of the free (1)

arhar (773548) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716483)

And while you're at it, apologize for Brian Adams and Alanis Morisette. Of course, we have to apologize for about 95% of everything else that's on the radio :-(

Burn down our whitehouse, then Celine Dion... (3, Funny)

Crasoum (618885) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716494)

... You guys have no limit for your evil. Can I move to Canada?

Re:The land of the free (2, Insightful)

Linuxthess (529239) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716521)

Ummmm... what about the blank CD-R levy you guys pay?

Re:The land of the free (1)

Rei (128717) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716582)

Yeah, but you also gave us Gerald Bull. If your government hadn't been stupid at the time, Canada would have had the cheapest space launch system in the world - only hundreds of dollars per kg.

40% less pay sounds tempting! (0, Redundant)

mrkitty (584915) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716393)

That is all...

Always a good thing (5, Interesting)

dsanfte (443781) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716396)

As a Canadian in the IT industry, I'd be glad to see more jobs coming here, definitely. There really is very little difference between Americans and Canadians, besides cultural and political systems. None of that plays into how you sound over the phone, or how well you code.

Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.

Re:Always a good thing (1)

garcia (6573) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716520)

If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.

Local firm? Convergys isn't local. They are all over (Canada and the US). In fact, they handle quite a few different types of cable modems (ATTBI used them, AT&T @Home used them, several phone companies, cable TV companies, etc).

Re:Always a good thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716554)

In fact, they are based out of Cincinnati, OH.

Re:Always a good thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716534)

More jobs in Canada is definitely a good thing. I'm currently and unemployed programmer living in Kingston, ON. Something tells me though that over all we will end up loosing more jobs to other places then the amount of jobs coming here from the U.S. On a side note, it sounds kind of weird hearing the americans saying they would never want to live in Canada. This country truely is a beutifull place, and I would NEVER EVER EVER live in the U.S.

Re:Always a good thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716583)

If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.

Or Stream/Solectron in London, Ont where I had the misfortune of working for a year.

Canada, a Freedom Loving America (5, Funny)

Cavio (217880) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716402)

It seems that the whole "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" has been outsourced to Canada. While we fight our war on drugs, Canada has sane drug laws. While we meddle in the affairs of every nation on Earth, Canada just keeps on making beer.

Beer == Good.

So, bring it on. Outsource me to Canada. I'll move there, what with their reasonable immigration policies, and shack up with a burly lumberjack babe and start my life anew.

Re:Canada, a Freedom Loving America (1, Funny)

cadfael (103180) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716456)

Sorry, the burly lumberjack babes are for locals only. You have to start with the hot quebecois babe and work your way up the ladder...

Canada, our home and native land, and the home of amazing French women...

Its been happening for years..... (3, Interesting)

luckytroll (68214) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716405)

Outsourcing to Canada has been going on for a while, mostly because of Canada's trusted status in matters of security. Even the evil Haliburton corporations big clusters are now living happily in Toronto along with dozens of others. I should know - I installed them - (and my karma aches for it)

This is like unemployment numbers (4, Interesting)

HBI (604924) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716409)

Everyone talks about first-time unemployment claims, but very few take the time to track what happens to the unemployed over time. Ditto for outsourcing projects. Most of the ones i've heard of or been involved with were ultimately cancelled due to incongruent labor laws, time differences, language barriers, quality control issues, et al.

heh (5, Funny)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716410)

speak English with nearly American accents

<obligatory British joke>
So they pronouce English slightly better then? ;)
</obligatory British joke>

Re:heh (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716513)

Yes actually. :)

Re:heh (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716530)

Yeh, righ' gub'nuh, dey spik de quen's English bettuh. No pronouncin' dem ah's[Rs] or nuttin'. :-)

Re:heh (2)

AliasTheRoot (171859) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716585)

They should outsource to the UK, wages and cost of living here are only 50% more...

awesome... (1)

cecille (583022) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716412)

wow, I can't wait until I get out of school and get paid 40% less than a person 2 hours south of me. sweet.

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia... (4, Insightful)

Cycline3 (678496) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716414)

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...? I work cheaper than all of them combined. There are plenty of people in the USA who will work for less - it's better than no work at all.

Re:Why not outsource to me in West Virginia... (0)

44BSD (701309) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716524)

Hell, dude, anybody works for less than all of Canada put together!

If You Choose To Move... (2, Funny)

Greenisus (262784) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716422)

You'll have to learn the Canadian alphabet:

A, ay!, B, ay!, C, ay!, D, ay! . . . .

/thanks, don't forget to tip the bar

Re:If You Choose To Move... (1)

Techguy666 (759128) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716547)

It's "eh", eh, not "ay", eh. Oy vey.

Good Idea (1)

spikiermonkey (751302) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716426)

Good Idea, but still won't help US programmers!

Perhaps the real solution to keep Americans workin (1)

Marxist Hacker 42 (638312) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716428)

Is to have Canada Annex the United States- they're obviously doing SOMETHING right with their 40% pay cuts (I took more than that to start working again after being laid off), lower value money supply, and socialized medicine (Heck, my PARENTS could afford a 40% pay cut right now if they could get under socialized medicine- medical insurance is 60% of their current cost of living).

Socialized medicine = no medicine at all (1)

Gothmolly (148874) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716495)

Talk to all the Canadians who pay for American Blue Cross.
I've lived in a socialist country (Scotland), and the medical system was crap. I knew a guy with an ingrown toenail, who even played minor league soccer, who had to wait 3 _YEARS_ for an operation, because people with more serious issues kept getting bumped ahead of him.
Fuck that.

Re:Perhaps the real solution to keep Americans wor (1)

dontspellsogood (674913) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716548)

Shh. We've already begun negotiations to acquire Wisconsin - We require more cheese for our poutine. And they sound like us doncha know. Eh?

And since the entire country migrates en masse in the winter, Florida also makes sense. We have nice conservation plans for the Everglades.

Keep in mind the exchagne rate... (1)

datastalker (775227) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716442)

...and realise that US $100 is about CA $132. (As of this morning.)

So if you have some money saved, a 40% "reduction" in pay (is that 40% factoring the exchange rate?) isn't really all that terrible, especially since the cost of living is lower.

But then you have to deal with the cold, which might or might not be a problem depending on whether you like that or not.

one of my buddies (1)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716444)

works at a tech support cubicle farm, and sometimes has trouble understanding some US English accents, especially the thick ones from the Southern States...

So as far as Canadian / US English language similarities are concerned, your mileage may vary.

Big $$$ in the Great White North (2, Informative)

Musagetes (766808) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716446)

Yes, it's true - you can make as much as $40,000 Canadian dollars in programming. That's only $30,000 in American dollars but you might be able to own a house on that.

Seriously, most of my fellow Canadians where I live are happy to have jobs in IT at all, and guys working in American call centres doing dubious 'IT' work like selling photocopiers make more than the programmers I know.

Want your fries without gravy? (2, Funny)

TimTheFoolMan (656432) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716457)

While it's true that the accents are "nearly the same," there are *some* diffs that will creep in.

BTW, even the McDonald's in Ottawa would offer gravy on their fries. Gravy on McDONALD'S FRIES??? What is this heresy?

Tim

Overhead Absurd (2, Insightful)

artlu (265391) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716458)

This is very interesting because the population in Canada is not nearly what India/China come close too. For my company, we can have 20 Indian guys trained and if 10 of them leave we still have 10 more. However, if I goto Canada, I can have 4 Canadians to train and if 2 leave, my project will fail due to not enough resources and/or time to train new hires. While the overall cost savings may be equal, the total amount of resources will be much lower.
Aj

GroupShares Inc. [groupshares.com] - A Free and Interactive Stock Trading Community

Clearly... (-1, Flamebait)

Mongoose Disciple (722373) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716460)

(tongue in cheek)

It's past time to roll tanks into Canada and officially make it the 51st state. We might not be able to pull that on China or India, but damn it, invading Canada is just convienient enough to be worth the trouble.

I should have it so well. (5, Insightful)

michael path (94586) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716462)

So, for 40% less than what I'm currently making, I could live in a nation that gives a crap about hockey [flamesgirls.com] , has a much smaller crime rate, has major domestic beers that don't taste like piss [labatts.ca] , and a health care system available to all its citizens?

Where can I sign up? Really.

Because Canada is fucking freezing (0, Troll)

DrPizza (558687) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716468)

And India has spicy food. I know which one I prefer.

40% less? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716469)

Good grief,

I was pulling down $80K Canadian last year doing joe-job programming. What do my US counterparts make?

In my opinion ... (5, Funny)

furball (2853) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716472)

It's aboot time people recognized this. Ootsourcing is better done in Canada. At least you can understand what people are talking aboot.

Can we trust them? (5, Funny)

NinjaFodder (635704) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716480)

I'm not sure that we can trust the Canadians yet. I'm still recovering from Brian Adams.

But the flipside... (2, Funny)

MrAndrews (456547) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716497)

Before any of you go packing your bags for Canada, just stop and think:
sure, you'll have a job; and sure you'll be working out of your own apartment instead of driving 2.5 hours to a cubicle somewhere; and sure you'll probably earn more on the whole than any of your other Canadian friends...
But really, half your income goes to the government, and what you're left with doesn't go as far, cause an iPod costs six hundred bloody dollars here, and... and... you have to say "bloody" in casual conversation... and "eh", sometimes, too... and...
Please don't come here! I can't take any more competition!

I'm moving to Vancouver next month (3, Informative)

madprogrammer (214633) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716498)

From L.A. But, I'm Canadian and just came down to L.A. to make some American money.

I'm part of what Canada calls the "Brain Drain" where large numbers of highly (yet cheaply) educated Canadians rush to the States after graduating. The U.S. (California in particular) provided an opportunity to make a lot of money. My company stopped hiring Canadians (and actually anyone out-of-state) soon after I started, to cut out relocation costs.

I've been saying that companies should out-source to Canada ever since this out-sourcing thing became a big deal. Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?

Re:I'm moving to Vancouver next month (2, Funny)

TwistedSquare (650445) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716561)

Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?

Brain Suck?

fris8t stop? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9716526)

we get tHere with u5e the sling.

French-Canadians? (-1, Troll)

goldspider (445116) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716533)

Ya gotta remember that a large portion of Canada primarily speaks French. Broken English with a heavy French accent can be just as hard to understand as broken English with a Hindi accent.

Question of priorities (1)

hyderabadi (797479) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716535)

China, India, Russia - all moody nuclear powers - need to be kept happy - give 'em jobs Canada - Ice hockey, molson beer... - hell, idiots smile all the time anyway

If the work won't go offshore, let the workers ... (1)

alanxyzzy (666696) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716543)

As reported [bbc.co.uk] yesterday [theglobeandmail.com] , Toronto (44%) and Vancouver (37%) have the 2nd and 4th highest proportions of immigrants of any city in the world.
The City of Toronto's website says the largest groups of immigrants to Toronto in the five years before the 2001 census were from China (45,901), India (25,560) and Pakistan (17,495).
unlike Miama (1st, 59%), where the immigrants come from neighbouring Cuba and Latin America, those in Canada have come from more diverse cultures further afield.

Xerox outsources to Canada (1)

smooth wombat (796938) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716560)

On two different occasions, several months apart, I had to call Xerox for some assistance configuring one of their multi-purpose machines. In both cases I happened to get the same guy. He was working from Nova Scotia (I believe).

He had just the barest hint of a 'Canadian' accent and it only occured on certain words. Had I not asked where he was while we were waiting for the machine to reboot I wouldn't have known he wasn't in the US.

Damn Canadians - have to ruin everything. (1)

xplenumx (703804) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716562)

Dang. It was easy hating India - they have a unique culture, live on the other side of the world, 'all look alike', and they don't speak perfect english. I like being xenophobic damn it!

Now Canada has to come in and screw everything up. I have friends in Canada. I ski in Canada. Hell, I like Canada. Who should I hate now? Thank God for mindless, faceless corporations.

40% is all relative. (4, Informative)

mdemeny (35326) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716567)

I think the cost of living is nearly 40% less as well - and as others have pointed out already, we get a fair bit in return for our tax dollar. With the exception of a few really interesting US cities - I would much prefer to live anywhere in Canada over any US city (and I've been to at least a dozen states for work, so I know what I'm talking about).

As a point of interest, my company tranferred me to London, England for 2 years. Overnight my salary more than doubled, but my costs more than tripled. I've since moved back and despite the large paycut from returning to a Canadian salary, it works out better for me in the end due to cost of living differences.

Mercer human resources has a chart [mercerhr.com] outlining cost-of-living differences in the world. Ottawa - my current home - is almost exactly 40% cheaper than New York. Canada's most expensive city (Toronto) is only slightly higher than the US's lowest city (Pittsburgh).

Wait do I still lose my job? (1)

VeeCee (693453) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716573)

Just kidding, of course I lose my job.

Seriously though, I'm a young programmer, I've only been working in industry for a little under two years, and just recently I've had my first experience with outsourcing.

The company that I work for decided to outsource a VB app to india. The labor costs were, as one would expect, quite low. Outsourcing is going to have it's share of sucesses and failures and I witnessed a major faliure. Over the 8 months that the application was developed, deadlines were repeatedly missed, and the application is in one word, terrible.

My boss was staying up until the wee hours of the morning in order to talk to the indian company about the project and according to him, the language barrier was barely tolerable.

Right now my full time occupation is re-writing whole modules and forms so that the application (an arcGIS program) actually does what it was intended to do. Will shipping jobs to Canada instead alleviate a few of these problems? Yea I guess so, but like I said "Don't I still lose my job?"*


*I'm not actually worried about losing my job

Canada isn't north of ME! (1)

Burb (620144) | more than 10 years ago | (#9716576)

...You insensitive clod!
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