The Last Place 489
angela morgenstern writes "Buddhist Bhutan was the last place on earth to legalize television. Trading traditional practices for daytime soaps and WWF, many fear that western influence will trample the culture." A whole set of articles about the effect of American television on one of the most remote places on earth - it's official, there is no escape from American "culture".
No escape? (Score:5, Funny)
Television is like Alcohol (Score:5, Interesting)
WWF (Score:2, Funny)
Re:WWF (Score:2)
"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:3, Interesting)
Is that the cost of a bag of red chillies in the United States ? How much buying power is $5 in Bhutan ? So these people get to watch adverts for cars/food/luxuries that they will not be able to purchase.
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:3, Informative)
The GNP per capita [ecoworld.com] 1995 for US seems to be $26 062, ranking at 12th postition. Bhutan, again, is 145th with a GNP per capita of $172. So, I suspect five bucks is a huge portion of a normal monthly salary.
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:2)
So I guess $5 is about 6-7% of monthly salary.
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:3, Funny)
Sounds like TV in Alaska.
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:3, Funny)
Exactly. And plenty of folks there are going to want to purchase those things. And they're going to realize that they need to quit hanging out in the monestary so often, or meditating, or whatever other unproductive things they do and GET A JOB.
And in a few years they're gonna be waking up early every morning and going to a job they hate and busting their butt every friggin' day, just like you & me, to get all that stuff.
Welcome to the west.
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:2)
Is that the cost of a bag of red chillies in the United States ? How much buying power is $5 in Bhutan ?
Who cares? You're missing the big picture! Why the hell can they wire remote areas for cable at $5/month but I can't get it right in the middle of my pre-wired metro area without paying an order of magnitude more? I mean, damn, just the listing of what's on costs twice as much from the TiVo people!
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:2)
Why can't they make their own programming. TV doesn't have to be evil.. it's what you watch.
TV--the great equalizer. (Score:2)
Re:"...all for about $5 a month." (Score:2)
they will be less affected than is thought (Score:3, Insightful)
American "culture" ? is that an oxymoron ?
Re:they will be less affected than is thought (Score:2)
Well for sure it's not a tautology
Avoiding US Cultural Imperialism. (Score:3, Funny)
Sure there is. Here are a set of simple instructions.
1) Locate point of entry for electricity in to your house.
2) Disconnect Electricity (some car is advised at this point). 3) Locate all telephones in house.
4) Smash telephones with Hammer, or other large heavy object (possibly your now useless VCR).
5) Locate large wads of cotton wool.
6) Insert cotton wool in to ears (in case of passing boombox).
7) Never leave house.
Never mind Pax Americana, fear Pax AOL / Time Warner.
Re:Avoiding US Cultural Imperialism. (Score:3, Funny)
7) Never leave house.
8) ???
9) Profit
Re:Avoiding US Cultural Imperialism. (Score:2)
Waitasec. (Score:3, Funny)
They mean to tell me that they get HBO in friggin' Bhutan? I can't even get it in Canada!
Spread of US "culture" (Score:5, Informative)
The popularity of WWF, even high in the remote mountain villages, was not something I expected. Then again, this is usually the only "culture" the US exports.
I also visited the country about 10 years earlier after a few months backpacking through India. For around 3 months I travelled and didn't once see a bottle/can of Coca Cola (or derivative) - it was all local soft drinks that were available. At the time it was a refreshing change, and gave you a much more local flavour.
On my more recent trip you could *only* get Coca Cola soft drinks (Coke, Sprite, Fanta, etc.), even high in the mountains a week's travel from the nearest road. OK, they were locally manufactured (under license) and tasted different (the Fanta was nice!), but it was something that got in the way of emersing yourself in a completely different culture. As for the locals themselves, there seemed to be no benefit whatsoever for them having "Coke" soft drinks compared to the local ones before them.
Ho hum, roll on the Disneyfication of the planet.
Re:Spread of US "culture" (Score:2, Interesting)
I think a more interesting report will be "how the marketting men got on" in 5 years time. Can they really understand a culture so different ? Bhutan is classified as one of the poorest countries but there is very little real poverty. It is hard for us to relate to a country that does not need money, so we call them poor. We think of poverty as not having a TV, extreme poverty as not having food. So how do you classify poverty in a country where food is there on the trees all year round? Where people happily feed a stranger just because he is passing at meal time? Where people will work for no wages because those around them will look after them? I do agree that their culture will lose from TV but I think we have far more to learn from them. The children in Bhutan already wear t-shirts and trainers so this is not a big step but it is a step further away from the beauty of what they had.
Clasification for Bhutan (Score:2)
As a gross overstatement Africa hasn't become poor, it's become greedy.
Re:Spread of US "culture" (Score:2)
Uhm, you're expecting some sort of change when people switch from one brand of suger water to another? And then you're blaming Coca Cola and American culture when there isn't one? You could at least try/i to hide your inherent cultural bias.
Culture is bunk.
Re:Spread of US "culture" (Score:2)
A bit of Westernization later, and there were- and I've never heard of any country going back and regaining its original character once it goes down this path. Something about Western Culture (tm) seems to teach people, 'consume, charge ahead towards whatever goal you claim to have, stomp anything that's in the way and chuck your trash out the window because you can't be bothered to waste time taking care of somebody ELSE'S roadside'.
On the subject of soft drinks, anyone noticed how "Red Bull" is made in Austria? Anyone noticed how American companies are now fighting for shelf space with their own imitations, anyone get the feeling that Coke and Pepsi are just not OK with you being able to buy soft drinks from some not-Coke company in Austria? Disneyfication is an awfully cheery word for global control. It will be interesting to see whether 'Copsi' choose to kill 'Red Bull' with price cutting and subsidizing their alternatives with the sales of their regular soft drinks, or whether they choose to kill it by demanding stores not carry it and threatening to pull the regular soft drinks off the shelves. The advantage of the latter is that once Red Bull is killed they get to still sell their 25 cent ripoff sugar water at 2$ a tiny can...
Ho fucking hum, business as usual...
Re:Spread of US "culture" (Score:2)
According to the Coca Cola web site, "Fanta sells best in Brazil, Germany, Spain, Japan, Italy and Argentina. Fanta distribution was increased in the U.S. in 2001 with the return of four flavors: orange, strawberry, pineapple and grape. Orange, the biggest seller, is now available in most of the country. "
Bhutan Broadcasting Services' schedule for today (Score:2)
19:00-19:15 Tonight & The News in Dzongkha
19:15-19:20 Advertisement and announcement
19:20-19:50 Dzongkha Gongphel
19:50-20:00 UK TODAY Sutton Hoo- The London Marathon
20:00-20:10 News in English
20:10-20:15 Advertisement and announcement
20:15-20:30 Telematch
20:30-21:00 Telematch
I am ready to Dzongkha! Whatever it is
I guess I am too young ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I guess I am too young ... (Score:2)
There is such a place... my house
American Culture (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been reading some of the comments and all I have to say is this: don't short change yourself or your culture, be aware of the things that have real value and give these to the world.
Re:American Culture (Score:2, Insightful)
...and give these to the world. (Score:2)
So maybe I'd be willing to give some of my culture to the world, but there's not much way or opportunity. Instead we have Disney and AOL/Time Warner selling American "culture", as you say. The key distinction is between "give" and "sell".
Americans who travel abroad (Score:2)
Re:Americans who travel abroad (Score:3, Interesting)
She's from Thailand (Bangkok), and they get their share of American tourists. Her stereotypical idea of an American, based on her experiences, is that of a loud-mouthed, demanding person that's always smacking gum and throwing money around. Once she moved here to the US she saw things alot differently.
The problem with foreign perception of Americans is that about the only Americans that travel and make it overseas are rich jackasses. They treat people like shit here and going overseas doesn't magically change that. So other countries get the worst upper-crust nimrods and the rest of us nice folks take the rap for them. I think if most foreigners that hate Americans actually come visit Texas or some other state for a year, they'll learn what Americans are really like.
Re:American Culture (Score:4, Insightful)
After all, in his day, Shakespeare's plays were considered to be for the common people. I don't mean to equate The Fast and the Furious with Hamlet, but I think we are too fast to dismiss anything other than 'high culture'.
Re:American Culture (Score:2, Insightful)
The culture that get's exported out of america is not the best, but that which thrives on popular emotions & has a transnational appeal(coke, wwf, spiderman).
The reason WWF succeeds, say, compared to Mark Twain maybe because WWF cuts across many barriers like language, the emotions conveyed are easily decipherable & more easily understood by a villager in bhutan than say, the meaning of songs by any US folk artist(Not that other cultural aspects like the writings of Mark Twain or David Thoreau may be unrelated to people across the globe, but it's just that they don't appeal to everyone & it is not marketable, esp the Corporations).
But, not all american culture does suceed, rather, the host country's culture or it's presentation get's a make-over(Glocalisation anyone?).eg:Switch on MTV in any country- Most of the pop song videos (their packaging) look similar, where as the folk-music that you would get, say on their PBS, would reflect the country's national ethos.
Re:American Culture (Score:2)
And Slashdot. Don't forget about Slashdot. :-)
Sometimes it is really hard to be proud to be an American. We do have so many great things in this country, but we have so many things to be ashamed of. I guess it just comes with the territory. Everything seems to be a paradox. We have a great country, with so much to offer by way of music, food, wine, entertainment, fashion, culture. But we always seem to just push things a little too far. I mean, we landed on the moon for crying out loud. We send missions into space on a pretty regular basis, and it barely makes the news. But Britney Spears breaks up with her boyfriend, and I have to hear about it for weeks. There are many things that I am proud of about my country, but it is really hard sometimes to remember those things when we act so stupid. About the only thing we don't have here is a deep rooted tradition. Maybe that contributes to our culture and our "culture".
Re:American Culture (Score:2)
We, as a country, do evil things. Most countries do. We also do good things. Most countries do.
I think part of the problem is the unwashed masses completely deny that the US could do anything wrong, that we are totally original, and everyone wants to be like us. These are the people that chant "USA USA USA" at everything.
More Americans, not less, need to look at our culture and what we do objectively. I can say "Yes, we don't have the thousand-year-old traditions of some countries, and that's OK. Yes, a lot of our culture is borrowed. That's OK. We are a young nation, and we have done some things wrong, and some things right. "
We have stolen a lot of things and called them our own. The ignorant thing is not that we have stolen an idea or two, everyone does that. It is that we claim it to be our own. That can piss people off, and rightly so. But we also have a lot of original things as well, that a lot of people around the world like. It is good to have a reality check sometimes, both the positive and the negative.
Re:American Culture (Score:2)
Actually, I would consider Coke to be a positive part of the American culture. What is negative about Coke? It's been around a looooong time, and people like it. One of the oldest American companies, and still successful.
Please use google cache (Score:2)
http://www.google.com/search?q=+site%3Awww.bbs.co
That might be a good enough link to use for most pages in the bhutan broadcasting service.
American Culture Not That Bad (Score:4, Insightful)
Come on, what's so bad about our culture? Not all of us are the stereotyped fat slobs who stare at the TV all day. Our music is diverse, our people tend to work, and our culture is mostly tolerant on issues. And I like the fact that we are free to discuss issues concerning the government.
Re:American Culture Not That Bad (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, I've seen that on Ricky Lake and Jenny Jones.
"Oh no, you're not normal! We have to change/brainwash you so you can fit in with the rest!"
Re:American Culture Not That Bad (Score:2)
Re:American Culture Not That Bad (Score:3, Insightful)
Only if you know where to look. Remember, before the internet, the same crap you hear on all of the current Clear Channel radio stations was the majority1 of what would make it to other countries.
our people tend to work
True, but we seem to be prejudiced against rest and relaxation of any sort. What ever happened to enjoying life? What's the big deal if you die a "successful" millionaire if you Can't Take it With You"TM?
My roommate from England tells me about how many Europeans get a month of vacation per year; they get even more (6 weeks?) if they've got some seniority. The average full-time American employee gets two weeks of vacation time per year, and those with seniority may even be lucky enough to get three! And even when we do finally get to take some down time, we still can't get some rest and relaxation [yahoo.com] without overworking ourselves.
and our culture is mostly tolerant on issues
More like Apathy. Passivity. Sheep-like behavior.
There are many issues which are worth some time to consider:
- Human rights
- Civil rights
- Racism
- Affirmative Action
- Funding education
- Arms control
- Campaign finance
- Missile defense
- Immigration
- The USA PATRIOT ACT, UCITA, DMCA, etc
- The corruption of mainstream media
- Medicare/Medicaid
- AIDS
- Drug patents
- Disabled rights
- Juvenile justice
- Conflicts in Africa
- The cause of poverty
- Third World Debt
- Free trade and globalization
- Creeping corporate power
- Consumerism
- International criminal court
- The Middle East
- The War on TerrorTM
- Foreign Policy
- Israel and Palestine
- Kosovo
- Chechnya
- East Timor
- China
- Genetically modified food
- Global Warming
- Animal/Nature conservation
- Human cloning
- Prayer in school
- Gun control
- Patient rights
- Euthanasia
- Privacy
- Terrorism
- Tobacco
- Health Care
- United Nations
- Veterans
- Tort Reform
- Separation of church and state
- Bill of Rights
(just to name a few)At least some of these issues should be things people talk about and think about every day, instead of going home to be brainwashed by MTV or the latest episode of Friends (aka "culture"). I know there *are* people in the USA who do stay on top of the issues, but for the most part, people prefer to stick their heads in the ground and be apathetic (aka "tolerant") of how everything is going now. Honestly, do you think our leaders are going to make the right decisions?
Re:American Culture Not That Bad (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, right past the "tolerant" americans holding their picket signs, their list from the Nuremberg Files, and their tote bag full of weapons which has "choose life" printed on the outside.
if i want to have a gay marraige, I can go to vermont or new mexico.
We're so "tolerant" that 4% of our state governments allow gay marriage. And then there's always the issue of dealing with our "tolerant" neo-nazis, Aaron McKinneys, and "tolerant" churches and conservative groups?
if i want to claim glaucoma and smoke a fat tasty spliff, I go to Cali (id rather fly to amsterdam, but whatev).
I'll agree a lot of people are tolerant to light drug use, but my problem with it is that as long as it's widespread and illegal, it makes a lot of people arrestable for something the majority of the public accepts.
Funny that you dont realize how much of a role intolerance plays in the two international issues you addressed. If im living in Israel and Im Palestinian, you bet your ass I'll be seeing some intolerance. If im a Catholic living in the wrong Neghborhood in Belfast, you bet your ass I'll be seeing some intolerance. But if I'm any of these living in any neighborhood in the U.S. I'll bet your ass that no one will give a flying fuck.
You're mostly correct as far as extent, but your colorfully metaphored assertion that there is complete racial apathy here in the USA is a little bit inaccurate. For example, what about a black family living in an all-white community in a southern state, or a young married couple moving into a community of mostly retirees? While in most cases, we've reached the point where physical violence is rare between these groups, there is certianly at least a small degree of intolerance.
Re:American Culture Not That Bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, right past the "tolerant" americans holding their picket signs, their list from the Nuremberg Files, and their tote bag full of weapons which has "choose life" printed on the outside. We're so "tolerant" that 4% of our state governments allow gay marriage. And then there's always the issue of dealing with our "tolerant" neo-nazis, Aaron McKinneys, and "tolerant" churches and conservative groups? For example, what about a black family living in an all-white community in a southern state
And then there are those ignorant people who stereotype all pro-lifers as violent abortion clinic-bombers, evangelical churches as neo-nazi gay bashers, and white southerns as racists.
Brian EllenbergerBhutanese Culture will cease to exist. (Score:3, Interesting)
When I was young, we were Alaskans. We had our own culture and music both the old (native alaskans) and the new Russians and Americans had forged a unique identity that was Alaskan. Then TV came. By the time I left High School you could see the changes.
My point is well illustrated by this story:
I graduated high school in 1992, the kids from our class did the Christmas dance theme on some cute "Stairway to Heaven" or other schmaltzy thing. The kids that were class of 1994 did "Christmas in da 'Hood". The '94 kids had gang violence in their classrooms. Kids bringing guns to school (with the intent of shooting other kids and not to show off their new hunting rifle), weapons, and grafiti became problems.
The ironic thing was that the younger classes were smaller ours was the largest graduating class.
I remember all the Rappers and the oppressed gansta' types sulking about the remote and wild wilderness of one of the remotest places on earth. Some people run away to the untouched beauty of Alaska to escape inner-city grime. How ironic that an aspiring young rap-star would be cursed with living in a place where there was hardly any crime and the government paid you to live there.
If religion is the opiate of the masses, then television is the crystal-meth of the glue huffing, crack-smoking, I-got-the-munchies masses.
Re:Bhutanese Culture will cease to exist. (Score:3, Insightful)
I just don't hold any illusions that you can preserve a local culture under the constant wash of TV. It just is as it is. TV's unblinking eye serves us well in many ways. As it connects it also provides a common experience to all who are watching, the common experience causes common culture. Just how GNU/Linux has a culture formed about it, and TV shows tend to spawn sub-cultures too (ie: Star Trek, Star Wars, et al.).
So maybe I'm being a bit harsh with my last post. Still, it is sad to see the end of a culture. Just like it was sad to see the end of Amiga, OS2, or Novell.
Nothing on TV, and you still pay for it?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Got internet for news, info, and entertainment. The kids now spend more time playing outside and reading. The only thing I really miss is sports (no big deal, as I hate all the local teams here in Maryland) and 24hr news (at least have the net).
Still have the TV (gotta watch DVDs and the kids still have the kiddie movies). But it mostly stays off now. It's nice.
Granted, instead of spending $40 a month on cable, I'm spending $100+ a month on DVDs.
Bhorgtan (Score:2, Interesting)
Article Here [cnn.com]
Re:Bhorgtan (Score:5, Insightful)
Is there a Bhutan-localized version of Red Hat?
That's a rhetorical question.
Which brings me nicely to my point: it is literally impossible for a capitalist culture to force itself on another culture. Capitalists can advertise products and services for sale but cannot force anyone to buy; the only people that eat at McDonalds, drink Starbucks, watch Disney and so forth are people who want to and are willing to pay with their own money.
If people don't want to buy, corporations will collapse and leave. The only people who complain aren't the ones freely spending their own money on what they enjoy. Rather, they are the self-proclaimed elite, those who don't offer anything that their people actually want, and can only survive where there is no competition. An example of this is the way the French taxpayer has to subsidise the production of French films, but with the money they are allowed to keep, they queue up to watch films from Hollywood.
Imperialism is something different. Imperialism is when one country conquers another with military force, forming an empire, and imposes its culture on the conquered. Imperial means "to do with an empire". Examples of imperialism are, for example, the conquests of eastern European countries and the imposition of Communism by the Soviets.
So I applaud the government and people of Bhutan - and the global corporations - for bringing freedom and choice to the most remote parts of the world.
Re:Bhorgtan (Score:2)
Ye gods. Nice oversimplification of psychology! Nice resolute ignoring of history and current freaking events, guy. You're playing logical games- go learn about 'game theory' and get it through your head that there is such a thing as non-optimal outcomes. You're insisting on a religious faith in stuff that is not backed up by reality, and every bit of it is to defend your little axiom, that cannot be questioned, that capitalists cannot possibly influence or direct a market other than to offer goods and services.
Post-Enron that sounds freaking insane- and that's just one side of things. People have been studying the psychological manipulation of 'consumers' (the word alone is a bias) for DECADES, how is it that you know nothing of this?
Damn randite. "no no, there is no such thing as force unless you point a gun at somebody!" You just keep on quote "applauding global corporations" unquote and let's hope enough people notice that and recognize you for what you are. You are not the apex of enlightenment, and your opinions are not the height of wisdom. They are brainwashed foolishness.
Re:Bhorgtan (Score:2)
I stand by what I said. The US military can invade Iraq and install a puppet regime, but can you imagine them corralling Iraqis into line at the newly opened Baghdad McDonalds? Of course not. Now if you're saying a corporation can bribe a government into doing something, that's true. But if the government's open to bribery, then any corporation who doesn't play along is at risk from their rivals getting there first.But that's just the corporation making the best of the murky environment it finds itself in.
Church and state were long ago separated; time for economy and state to be uncoupled also.
Post-Enron that sounds freaking insane- and that's just one side of things. People have been studying the psychological manipulation of 'consumers' (the word alone is a bias) for DECADES, how is it that you know nothing of this?
Yes, it's called advertising. The worst it can do to you is annoy you. It can't make you do anything you don't want to do - and that's a fact.
And what has Enron got to do with anything? Enron is proof that the system works: they tried to break the law, they got caught, they got busted. That's the beauty of the capitalist system, if you set it up right, it's self-regulating.
Even worse !! (Score:2)
ups and downs (Score:2)
- WWE (formerly the WWF)
- The Anna Nicole Smith Show
- Jackass
- Springer/Oprah/etc.
- FOX News
upsides:
- Simpsons
- Red Dwarf
- Cartoon Network's Adult Swim
- MST3K
Re:ups and downs (Score:2)
Linux is american!?!?! (Score:2)
Who is this Linus Torvalds then?
Read Kuensel (Score:4, Informative)
And it uses Slash.
WWF (Score:2, Funny)
didn't you mean WWE [wwe.com]
what really gets exported (Score:3, Insightful)
Freedom, responsibility, and individualism??? (Score:2, Troll)
Surely you jest!
Freedom: The NSA, The DCMA, yup... pretty good freedoms there.
Responsiblity: The Kyoto agreement, The UN war crime court, Pollution, Fossil fuels. Very responsible.
Individualism: If I may quote MP: "Yes, we are all individuals!". Sorry, US populace is one of the most sheepish ever.
[trolling ends]
Re:Freedom, responsibility, and individualism??? (Score:2)
Last I heard, the US was the largest consumer, the largest polluter, and certainly had it fingers in enough war-pies to make Mom blush.
Mind you, this is all from NPR and the BBC - well known shills for our government.
Cite something. Enlighten me.
Re: what really gets exported (Score:2)
> Yet our fundamental values of freedom, responsibility, and individualism somehow don't sell as well.
Pardon my cynicism, but don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to call those our fundamental values? Sure, they get a lot of lip service, but they don't seem to see a lot of hard use.
Freedom: How does the USA's incarceration rate stack up to the rest of the world's?
Responsibility: Why isn't there a diving board at your municipal swimming pool?
Individualism: Manifests itself primarily as insider stock deals ("Avoid the crowd!").
That's not to say that there aren't a lot of good things about the USA, but unfortunately we're a bit slack about any core values other than greed and the lust for power.
Re:what really gets exported (Score:2)
Kind of makes a mockery out of calling it "democracy", then, doesn't it?
A sudden revelation (Score:2, Flamebait)
Think about it....has the American populace ever been so apathetic and easily manipulated as we have in the last 25 years? Our political and corporate leasership gets progressively worse and worse and yet the same people keep getting re-elected into office and appointed to positions of trust. This is a fucking wet dream not only for corrupt despots of all kinds in the rest of the world, but other so-called democracies and republics that don't want all the hassle that comes with actually appeasing people through honesty and care for citizens' well being.
"Fuck it", they say, "let em watch TV so we can manipulate their views with mass media and satiate their desires by making them think they have to have all the useless crap that's advertised...they'll feel their needs are met when they make a few purchases."
It's made most of us lazy, greedy, and apathetic...hardly anyone votes anymore and most of the ones that do cannot be bothered to think about who they're voting for, they just vote for whatever party they decided they liked in high school civics class. No one takes an interest in their community anymore. How many of you can say you know the names of all your neighbors? How many of you care? By this loss of sense of community and the artificial contentment that arises from being a "consumer", we don't take nearly as much of an active part in what's going on around us, community or government. Local or National.
Don't let it fool you...American culture is about being controlled while at the same time feeling like you're the one in charge. You ARE in charge...of what channels you watch and what merchandise you buy. I have genuine respect for those who are willful enough to avoid watching television, or better yet, do not own one. When the revolution comes, you'll be the ones who aren't watching it on CNN.
Happiness can't be found in catch phrases, soft drinks, feel-good tv shows, or pop music. I feel sorry for the people of Bhutan. It sounds like it used to be a nice place.
Re:A sudden revelation (Score:3, Interesting)
In which society is propaganda most important, in a dictatorship or a democracy?
For more on this subject, read Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky's [zmag.org] Manufacturing Consent, which explains how the seven media filters make sure nothing nasty (like, for instance, the truth) reaches the public. It's a quite heavy book to read, but very interesting.
Also, for brilliant US political satire comics, something I discovered yesterday: This Modern World [thismodernworld.com], by Tom Tomorrow. (I don't think the penguin is related to Linux though.)
Don't unplug your TV, don't unplug your mind eithr (Score:2, Insightful)
In short, nothing has changed except your perception. Do you truely think that Maw and Paw Kettle out in Bumfuck, ID knew about political scandles back in the 1800's? Of course not, all they knew about washington was reported in a newspaper. A newspaper that 'played nice' with the politicos. Things seem worse because you can see all the bad events, but trust me, this stuff has been going on forever. Do you really think the industrial magnates of the first half of the 20th century were 100% pure? Yeah right! When you own all the steel in the country, you do what you want.
Don't throw out the TV...maybe turn off the cable. Just remember that it's all entertainment. Even the 'news', and especially CSPAN!
Re:A sudden revelation (Score:2)
Yeah dude, old Julius Caesar figured this one out too, he called it "bread and games". So in other words, give your people jobs/consumer goods and entertainment and you can pretty much rule as you like.
Interesting to note though, that it was the King of Bhutan who resisted this for so long. Sounds like a good leader to me (tries to do what's in the best interest of his people). So maybe all is not lost for Bhutan.
Re:A sudden revelation (Score:2)
We're not hungry, we're not angry, at least not for any appreciable amount of time. That why Saddam Hussein and African Dictators starve their own people, to encourage misery and dissent which can be used to blame and destroy the cultural 'enemy' of their choosing.
If and when the Revolution comes, the New Boss will be much worse than the Old Boss, believe you me. Ideology thrives on mountainous piles of human meat and oceans of blood, because the End is always deemed as more important than the means.
Kicking the TV habit and getting to know your neighbors are things we each do ourselves by choice. The minute you try to mandate such things you have created a State. Feed people, educate them in the basics and then let them live. If their idea of living is endless rounds of WWF, then so be it. You and I have come to find greater value in other things, but that does not mean that we are superior.
Will Thee Move Thy Horseless Carriage? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Rumschpringen (Score:2, Informative)
One can reject something one has been exposed to.
Homogonized Culture (Score:3, Insightful)
These fears aren't just about Bhutan. If anything, America faces as great a threat from the death of local culture as anywhere else. The only difference is that we delude ourselves into thinking that raking in money makes it all "okay."
Sure, we feel more comfortable when we travel when we can order the same extra value meal in in every time zone, but I can only echo the sentiments of Lisa on the variety of Americana:
Lisa: Wow, Dad and Bart have been everywhere! They've eaten submarine sandwiches, grinders, *and* hoagies.
Damn. I guess I've been taken in by the tentacles too. I guess it's okay as long as I can super-size.
Mod me "Off Topic" if you will, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Let's face it, what passes for culture in, say, Northern Europe is the art produced to the taste of a small elite that maintained its position through violence and threats of violence.
In much of the rest of the world, what passes for culture involves things like clitorectomy, honor killing of women, huge rates of infant mortality, etc.
What's America got by comparison? Well, an empowered middle class that gets to do pretty much what it wants. Hence we have backyard barbeques, tailgate parties, Budweiser, The Simpsons, large bellies, and early cholesterol death.
And guess what? We like it like that!
Now, don't get me wrong, there is room in the fringes for the next Mozart. In fact, bring it on! If we like it, we'll make you a multi-millionaire.
You see, that's the beauty of American culture: it's a total democracy of taste, and the mob gets to vote with its pocket book.
Now, I know that the elites in other parts of the world just totally gnash their teeth at this. That's what elites do when confronted with deomcracy.
Well, get used to it.
The Evil TV plot... (Score:2)
Or Great Britian "culture" or Austrailian "culture" or whatever "culture"
television is an entertainment device and if people are entertained by "culture" then let them.
God forbid they discover that the world isnt flat and there are other people in it.. let alone the fact that the people you were bred to hate all your life are not really as bad as your government told you they were... (Go watch some Chinese or Russian Television programmes or movies.)
Bhutanese football (Score:2)
Didn't we undergo this before?? (Score:2)
I think the fall of cultural provincialism via the spread of television is not exactly a new phenomenon.
Think about it: when the Roman Empire spread throughout the Mediterrean, the culture of that empire heavily stomped out most local cultures and/or adapted local cultures to Roman needs. It was this singular culture that allowed Christianity to spread throughout the Empire by the 3rd Century AD.
When Johann Gutenberg invented the moveable type printing press around 1453, it made it much easier to spread learning around Europe. The ability to print thousands of identical copies of books formed the basis of national culture throughout Europe.
And from the 1920's on, the rapid deployment of radio did a lot to reduce provincial spoken dialects, especially with national radio networks pretty much forcing people to speak in very few or only one standard dialect(s).
Television is just only a recent medium that is stomping out cultural provincialism through the world; the Internet is doing the same right now.
Some people are crazy (Score:2, Interesting)
Export it all (Score:2)
- trial by jury
- women's rights
- end of torture
- highly productive economy
- separation of church and state
- education of the masses
- modern medicine
- multicultural tolerance
Old joke (Score:2)
I think it would be a good idea.
Yes, I know it's probably redundant, but if this joke has been posted here then the original is already at -1 and I didn't get a chance to enjoy it again. No culture, no sense of humour, no cuisine... no wonder you people wig out over Monty Python and pizza.
Re:What's with the quotes? (Score:2)
Re:What's with the quotes? (Score:2)
Re:What's with the quotes? (Score:2)
I don't like it, but I would say Seinfeld was one of the high points of unmistakably American culture- particularly the famous last episode which illustrates exactly what Seinfeld was about all along. Seinfeld is vicious, mean, cheap, self-absorbed, pitiless, joyless... the few times I saw it I just did NOT 'get' it, I couldn't see what the hell was supposed to be so funny about this hugely popular show. When I read about that final episode, that notorious final episode, then I got it, and I respected the nerve of it. Seinfeld was observational humor on a grand scale, and what was being observed was the practical result of Western culture and values- a fantastic integration of what you might call Western Corporate Capitalism into the characters' very psyches. They were pitiful, utterly isolated- the only interaction they could do with anything was the crudest sort of tearing-down. There were no connections, no social context for them, no home or support- the ultimate nihilism- and the show's observational humor was built on that void, which resonated with the American viewing audience.
That is why I think 'Seinfeld' is the ultimate expression of American Culture.
That is also why I think 'American Culture' as it stands today is poisonous and unworthy of being exported. It's like, you could have a form of cancer that infected really well, and spread really fast, making it by far the most efficient organism around- it just kills its host, woopsy. Is that a reason to infect people with it? "Look, it expands really fast! That must mean it's good for you!"
Re:What's with the quotes? (Score:2)
Also, I think "culture" is overrated. I'm creating beautiful disarray, ejaculate meaningless drivel. I like doing whatever the fuck I want when I want, all of the time.
For example, I like saying fuck. FUCK FUCK FUCK!!!
Try it, feels gooooood
Re:Hmm (Score:2, Funny)
Nothing's wrong with American culture. Nor with the USA "culture", it's just that people outside USA don't call WWF, McDonalds and The Simpsons "culture".
~velco
cultural memetics (Score:2)
As far as I'm concerned, one of my cultures was destroyed when the spaniards invaded northern chile and bolivia, and huge areas of that culture are now gone. But even though I've never even spent more than a couple of days in the places where my ancestors lived, I can still pick up a book or search the internet and learn about it. So yes, preserve it, but no, don't force people to keep it while they want to watch WWF, eat at McDonalds or whatever else.I don't want to impose my judgement on that. Otherwise you're teaching people to see their culture as obligatory...
McDonalds... (Score:2)
But of course the sheeps go to McDonalds with their screaming kids. I have taken a vow to never set a foot inside McDonalds again!
Re:McDonalds... (Score:2)
Re:Hmm (Score:3, Interesting)
Travelling around the US you see that such companies have had, what I believe, to be a very negative effect. Everywhere you go it all looks the same, tastes the same, hears the same (same music industry manufactured "pop"), etc. Local and regional flavour is lost. This is great if you like Taco Bell, only drinking Coke and listening to Britney. But there is a lot more to life than that!
Why is it popular in other countries? Well, 2 reasons:
1) The *good* thing about the US - **freedom**. You live a very privelidged life compared to many people of the world. Many people of the world see the US and freedom as being very related things. So when they are given a bit of freedom they have previously lacked, they gravitate towards such things. Think as a teenager and how you behaved once given freedom from parents.
2) This is a not so good thing about the US - **money**. Consider the situation in Bhutan as an example. At the moment there are local (very small) companies that make soft drinks - these won't be copies of Coke, etc., but will be genuine different soft drinks you've never experienced. As Bhutan opens itself up, Coca Cola will move in and either set up a new company to manufacture their drinks, or buy existing ones. People will buy their drinks first of all because of #1 above - it's new, it's cool, etc. Within a very short time, there will be no local soft drinks made. The reason for this will *not* be because Coke is better and people only want it. It will be because the Coca Cola company have the financial muscle to completely control the soft drinks industry of that country. This is not good.
#2 applies to things much more than soft drinks, TV, etc. When you're talking about 3rd world countries and things like agricultural seed supplies and strictly controlled genetically engineered crops, this can have a very bad effect. It's very realistic for companies akin to Monsanto to completely control who areas of agricultural production in these kinds of countries.
So if you believe "raionalism" is #2 above, and this is a good thing, you can surely extrapolate this to meaning there will eventually be only 1 of anything in the world - a single soft drink we all only buy, a single type of car, etc. I don't think this will be a nice place to live.
Left uncontrolled, #2 will eventually remove much of the choice and freedom in the world, thereby harming the greatest thing about the US, #1.
Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me give you an example. In the US there is a wine company that sells itself as Cabris, which is actually a region in France that is know to sell a good white wine. Well the American company took advantage of this to "con" people. The French region on the other hand has problems now because people get confused by the marketing message.
The problem of American culture is not the American's themselves, but the companies that take advantage of situations. Corporations in their quest for profits and bigger market share do not care a rat's butt about culture. Just more money. And in the past that has not been a problem. But now in a global economy that is a problem. Since it means some things will be lost, even though they should not be.
The American corporations are just too damm efficient at taking over the world. Result is hatred. Whenever you see people hating America, do you see people hating individual American's? Nope just icons, flag, McDonalds, jeans, etc.
I think that the challenge of this century will not be tech, or political, but social. This century will be the century when humanity is tested to see if we can truly live together! Or if we are doomed to be fighting each other. We have the technology to destroy each other and we have the means to live together.
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
What I sometimes miss among some American corporations and some American politicians is a global attitude.
Re:Hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that many American corps have an in your face attitude, whereas other global companies are not quite that bad. Consider Nestle, which is the biggest producer of food globally and they produce an almost majority of the processed food consumed by Americans. Does the average American know that? Not likely because Nestle is very deversified and adjusts their food to local cultures. Then consider Walmart, which tries to do everything their way. It works in the US, partially Canada and partially Mexico, but they are getting their butt kicked in Europe. Consider the opposite case of Carrefour which is kicking Walmarts butt globally by respecting local cultures. Not all American corps do this. A prime example are the music labels and MTV. They adjust their content respective to each country. In India MTV is VERY different than MTV in America or MTV in Europe. MTV adjusts to local tastes and languages. Or even CNN. CNN Europe (CNN Spain, CNN Italy, CNN Germany) is not CNN America.
That is my point. There are ways to become a dominate company globally...
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
Actually I think this is all a pretty interesting issue. What is it about the influence of American culture that makes it so pervasive and insidious that it pretty much instantly infects and metastasizes inside cultures hundreds or even thousands of years older?
Rationalism? Well, maybe to a degree, but I don't think the WWF, Rosie O'Donnell, and When Aliens Attack IV really represents the height of the Western Rational tradition.
Freedom? Hmmmm... again maybe to a degree but probably not in the way people are thinking about. Consumerism (of which I freely admit to being an addict as much as the next guy) tends to blur over and confuse itself with Freedom, but it isn't freedom in the same sense that the framers of the constitution thought about. What it is about is a much more elementary and slightly infantile wish for instant gratification and godlike immediate access to all objects of desire. This is a human universal, so the appeal there is obvious...
The Big Corporate Conspiracy? It always comes up, but moving past the tinfoil-hat brigade there's an element of truth there all the same. Shows and advertisments are both crafted to go under our rational radar and appeal to the idea of the life we wish we had. We tune in to a show or watch a movie because we are entertained - traditional cultural stuff is often enjoyable in a forced and strained way (kind of like a visit with Grandma) but the latest Arnie movie is a cheap date who wants to go home with you right now. Who doesn't like that? The Corporate Media (hate using that term, but let's not pretend it doesn't exist) craft the American Media Experience to appeal instantly to everyone, and they do it in a darwinian environment that encourages doing it better all the time. Can the ten-thousandth retelling of Fred the Barber and His Magic Scissors compete with Sex In The City?
The real problem with this is that people tend to confuse success with value. I think that's what angers the anti-american-culture reactionaries.
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
American culture (mostly the entertainment area) is like cocaine - once you've tried it you can't live without it...It is tailored for the people and sharpened to penetrate instantly into average men's mind.
It is just like business competition of different cultures.. If your own culture can offer you better or to least same way to live (read entertain) than American's, then it can survive. Otherwise, it is doomed. So don't blame us, you have to offer something better or survive.
No one really wants to live in a traditional culture without movies, TVs and internet.
Re:Ah yes! (Score:2)
Re:time heals all wounds (Score:2)
By the time you stop watching, it's already too late. TV has had its effect on you during your formative years, and your adult life will be forever shaped by it.
Europe got culture? (Score:4, Funny)
And now is the time on Sprockets where we go on about how much more culture we have than the Americans.
Okay, I'll grant Europe had a fine culture, once. Operas and architecture and symphonies and everything. But that was a gosh-darn long time ago. Let's just face it. Europe has been in decline, culturally and politically, for about a century now.
I can get Beethoven, Mozart and Sibelius on CD. I can get the Dutch masters in high quality reproduction. I can even get the worthless crap the French are passing off as philosophy these days, though there's not much point. Who needs Europe anymore? It's all used up.
Nowadays, someone mentions European culture, and what comes to mind is the topless aerobics in that Chevy Chase movie. Just think, honey. They've been doing this for eons!
Re:negative connotation to consolidation (Score:2)
We in America are a cancerous growth- sort of. We're a hell of a lot like, say, Microsoft- everything will be great if we don't ask any questions, don't stop to think, don't slow down! This masks some fundamental problems with our values.
There are a lot of places in the world where trying to imitate us in the USA has led to a world of hurt. Attempts to do high-yield agriculture, attempts to use 'free trade' by setting up sweatshops and such things- if our value is just 'MORE' well, that's a problem.
There was a time when we had much more specific values- 1776. If you read things like the Federalist Papers you'll see the words of people with far more depth to them than you commonly see these days. I have! Everybody here is fond of Jefferson for his thoughts on IP being like a flame that is spread, not diminished, but I'm also a fan of Madison and Federalist #10, and that guy would have understood this situation perfectly. He was the one loudly demanding that the majority be prevented from automatically trampling smaller factions (cultures) just by its own weight. Instead of proposing that Shangri-La be trampled by the weight of Western 'culture' (exactly how do you consider 'Seinfeld' culture? Answer carefully- it's a trick question, and a deeper question than you think), how about devoting some thought to how this 'living meme', Shangri-La, which has echoed throughout culture and literature like some earthly Heaven, can be allowed to retain its own identity? Because IT WANTS TO. It's just that you don't saddle a damned butterfly and expect it to be the same.
Can't help but be reminded of Douglas Adams' little parable about Fuolornis Fire Dragons...
Re:Life without TV is good (Score:2)
Of course, I'm one of those freaks supporting Bhutan's desire to not be Westernized, so maybe you shouldn't listen to me. Or maybe it's worth asking 'why does living that small amount more like Shangri-La lead one to understand and sympathise with them more?'
Re:Life without TV is good (Score:2)
A meaningless phrase, as only individuals can have a "desire" for anything. Presumably it is shorthand for "the desire of certain people within Bhutan to prevent anyone in the country from having the option of adopting Western ways".
Re:"No Escape from American 'culture'?" (Score:2)
Very friendly people, and loved trying to use their english, and also saying "Hi ho silver!!!"